A D V E R T I S E M E N T
A D V E R T I S E M E N T
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If the cause of peace is worth supporting — and we believe it is — then peace protesters must demonstrate the values they promote. The vast majority of the estimated 15,000 protesters who took part in a peace march Sunday in downtown Portland did just that. They were well-behaved, well-intentioned and serious about their cause.
But then there was a smaller group of demonstrators — if they can even be called that — who engaged in numerous actions that violated the sensibilities of ordinary people and damaged the very cause the activists claimed to endorse.
This splinter group of protesters showed its support for “peace” by burning a U.S. soldier in effigy. It exhibited its supposedly pacifist nature by knocking a police officer off his bike — an action that brought out the police riot squad.
Perhaps the most disturbing scene of the afternoon, however, involved the man who pulled down his pants in front of women and children and defecated on a burning U.S. flag. This disgusting act actually elicited cheers from some members of the crowd, but we hope that the emotion it produces in the community is one of revulsion.
Offensive behavior does not advance peace and justice in the world. Rather, it undermines the moral message of peace demonstrators. It leads people to believe that it’s not possible to be both patriotic and opposed to the war in Iraq.
If the goal of peace demonstrators is to influence public opinion and encourage an end to the war, the activists must connect with their fellow citizens — not repel them.
Most of the people who marched on Sunday fully understand this. And by singling out the few who didn’t, we don’t intend to place thousands of demonstrators under one label. But the actions of a few do create a public perception that at least some advocates for peace are anti-American, anti-police and far out of step with mainstream values.
The anti-war demonstrators who behaved responsibly this past weekend have an obligation to denounce — and distance themselves from — those protesters who purposefully offend others and consequently destroy the intended message of peace.
"This disgusting act actually elicited cheers from some members of the crowd..."
Evidently, it elicited objections from no one in the crowd, or I'm sure it would have been mentioned in the article. That's ok; we all know what the "peace" movement is all about-- hating America, and taking sides with anyone against us.
Remember, folks-- nobody's making you stay in this country.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 06:49 AM
I think we know exactly who paid them to do this, the same nutso left-wing group that pays for many anti-American protests: ANSWER, which is a front group for marxist/communists (yes they are still around) and which is funded by North Korea and George Soros.
Yes, Marilyn, I know you were implying that Bush-evil-halliburton-Co-Inc paid the protestors, but, really, why would a right-wing group waste good money trying to get left-wing loonies to act loony when they do it for FREE?
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 06:51 AM
I still haven't heard a public statement from any anti-war organization denouncing this act. People like "Marylin" simply blame Bush conspirators when in fact these individuals have done what "Marylin" would really like to do. If what I say is false, then let's hear some announcements from the anti-war crowd in public and not on some anonyomous chat board.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 07:10 AM
But remember, they're patriots!!!
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 07:12 AM
I'm not surprised at these actions. I've actually seen worse at some of the DC or SF rallies. Crazy Leftists so full of hate they can't contain themselves, leaving an excretory exlamation mark on anything they can defile. The filfth pours out of them uncontrollably, their sensibilities slowly dribbling down their leg. Kos... Soros... ANSWER... all equally culbable in this fecal stew of humanity.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 07:13 AM
Those are some sickos. I would have jumped out of my skin if I had brought my child to something like that and they were behaving that way. The United States of Apathy... Political Correctness is killing us slowly. I don't care who you are or what rights you have, the flag doesn't burn in the same air I breath.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 07:17 AM
It is time to cleanse our nation of this scum.Let's take 'em on! NOW!
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 07:24 AM
The ONLY surprising aspect of this incident is that it did not take place in San Francisco.
Zealots - whether they're religious or secular - eventually reduce themselves to fecal tossing caricatures.
And it's usually not before getting smeared with feces that congregations regain control of their intended message. The level of serious thought, rational discourse and courage required to regain control of the message may be out their reach now. The anti-war message has been moving in this direction over the last few years now and has alienated the minds it once sought to change. To moderate Americans, the Anti-war message has become, "I am Dirty Sanchez and I poop on America."
It's not possible to take the message from these people and the sheep marching with them seriously.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 07:40 AM
Go baby boomers go. What a great generation you have been.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 07:45 AM
Gosh, I sense so much anger and hate coming from the respondents in the previous posts. Don't you all understand that the nice man who "defecated" on the flag was just so overcome with emotion that that was the only way he knew to get his inner-feelings out. Protecting, even encouraging, this kind of behaviour is EXACTLY what the framers of the constitution had in mind. Didn't Thomas Jefferson say something about shitting on the flag? The defecator and the people who support the defecators who are the true patriots, right? You guys need to get into a sociology course (found on any college campus) stat! Then you will understand his actions.
And look at the bright side- what would have come out of his mouth would have been even more digusting...
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 07:48 AM
There's an eerie parallel here between "moderate" protestors not speaking out against their "extreme" members and "moderate" Muslims not speaking out against their "extreme" element.
There is a search on for the mythical "moderate" Muslim community which denounces terrorist organizations and activities. There should be a parallel search for the "moderate" anti-war group who decries the rampant anti-Americanism present at these protests.
Personally, I don't believe that either exists in great numbers. Where are the "not in my name" masses decrying either Jihadism or anti-Americanism?
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 08:04 AM
Wow. "Marilyn just can't believe that a liberal would do such a thing. There must be some other explanation, right Marilyn? Oh! I know! it must have been the evil Republicans.
I remember hearing the same thing from MANY in the arab world after 9/11; "A muslim would never do somethng so terrible. it must have been the evil jew."
In short, Mr Marilyn, you are about as sharp as a bowling ball. I'm serious. i'm not just trying to flame you, tease, you, or give you a hard time. I truly mean it when I say you are a very very very dumb human being. How do you dress yourself every morning? How do you eat?
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 08:05 AM
Have you ever been to a peace march? There is nothing peaceful about them at all. They are hate parties, conducted by the same people that have been doing them for decades.
Make no mistake, they are and have always been America-hating parties.
God bless America for giving you the right to act like a total retard.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 08:11 AM
so uh, where's the verification for this account? Did the Trib's editorial staff watch the march and witness it? Where are the accounts from claimed witnesses?
And why are we assuming these were actual leftists? Couldn't they just as easily have been provacateurs from the right, trying to smear (pun intended) the march? Wouldn't be the first time it happened.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 08:21 AM
Editorial response:
The specific acts discussed in the editorial were verified. There was a Tribune reporter at the march and a Tribune photographer took pictures of some of the acts described. The editorial itself, of course, is the opinion of the editorial board members, based on both the paper's reporting and their own reporting.
Connie Pickett
Web editor
LocalNewsDaily.com
and PortlandTribune.com
It's always so amusing to watch the right foaming at the mouth over stories like this, about random nutjobs (and we all know insanity crosses party lines), using it to keep trying to push through their odd thought that anyone who doesn't agree with them "hates America". Keep on thinkin that, while the rest of the world laughs.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 08:23 AM
i am not american, but i can see that the left are allied with islamist and the rest of mad communist world and yes it appears to me that the left loves islams more than they love there own country, the USA.
michelle sorry i think islam is stronger because of people like you and i think you leftist are the ones being laughed at.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 08:36 AM
"Offensive behavior does not advance peace and justice in the world. Rather, it undermines the moral message of peace demonstrators. It leads people to believe that it’s not possible to be both patriotic and opposed to the war in Iraq."
Oh, please. That kind of behavior is right down their alley.The moral relativism of the left is stomach turning. What kind of “morals” involve the support of terrorists and Islamofascists who want to transform the planet into a Caliphate? Gotta love the "support the troops but not the war". Newsflash: The two are not mutually exclusive. The repertoire of 21st century flower children includes burning the flag, cheering the Taliban and al Qadea, slandering the victims of 9/11 and loathing the military. Marching with anti-American/pro-Islamofascist signs and screaming the usual recitations in a free country doesn’t take a lot of guts.
For all of the bluster, they would never, for one minute, live under the system they advocate. Their identity is mired in the anti-American neurosis part and parcel to the lunatic fringe. If their intention is to reflect their "patriotism", the method could use some work.
Sergeant First Class Cheryl McElroy
US ARMY (RET)
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 08:43 AM
Another filthy act that can be blamed on George Bush? Why not?!
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 08:47 AM
From what I've seen when visiting Portland, I'm surprised anyone noticed this lone flag crapper.
2007 Portland has more animals than the 1800's fur trade!
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 08:50 AM
Defecating on the flag is the highest form of patriotism.
If one can't defecate on the flag then the terrorists have already won.
/sarcasm off/
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 09:09 AM
Marilyn & Michelle,
Let’s look at the real world. Who holds the most violent demonstrations and counter demonstrations? 90% are by the left. Heck the left holds violent "peace" demonstrsations. Who cuts off the free flow of ideas on college campi? 90% of the time its the left. Who censors speach with political correctness? 90% of the time its the left. Who shouts down and throws pies at speakers with whom they disagree? Its the left 90% of the time. At the last Republican convention, the police told the delegates to not wear their ties or jackets while out side the venue … it was dangerous to look Republican. How many liberals had their tires slashed during the last election?
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 09:09 AM
Hey, if it wasn't for the stupidity of the right, we wouldn't have the stupidity of the left, so who's more stupid? THE RIGHT!
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 10:03 AM
So, let me get this straight. A bunch of 'bleeding-heart peaceniks' march for, what else..peace. Add one lunatic party-pooper... they, the peaceniks, magically turn into 'dangerous lefty radicals.' Talk about compartmentalisation, "Those dangerous radical peace lovers."... run that through your brain a few times.. does it fit?
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 10:36 AM
A note to all the thugs at Indymedia, KBOO, Airhead America, Communist-inspired World Can't Wait, and all of Jim Lockhart's followers: Denounce this filth, with no qualifiers. Do it now.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 10:49 AM
I just wish I had been there to beat the effigy burners in the face with my fists.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 10:57 AM
Having lived in Eugene and traveled to Portland frequently, this is what passes for liberal activitsm. No reason, just the idiocy of people who feel, rather than think.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 10:59 AM
Leave it to "Right wingers suck" to point out the flawless logic of the leftist mind. Like a true cog in the Marxist machine, never promote personal responsibility, just pass the blame...
Also, when "moderates" truly represent the majority, they marginalize the radicals and make them objects of ridicule. Unfortunately, many on the Left (and in the Muslim world, for that matter) just cheer their radicals on or make excuses for them.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 11:02 AM
The title of this article should be: War Protesters Show True Message.
It ought to be a wakeup call to all those who are even mildly intrigued by the so-called anti-war movement. They are all traitors, cowards and/or perverts. These are the people who are “with you” in mind, spirit and body. Take a good look at it, because it defines you.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 11:22 AM
How is it possible to defecate over a burning flag? Ouch! What kind of person even thinks to do such a thing?
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 11:34 AM
Gosh, most of the comments carry more logic, fairness and facts than either the editorial or Marilyn's reasoning.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 11:37 AM
What basis is there for stating, as if it were an immutable fact, that the vast majority of marchers did not support these actions? Did they boo them? Did they try to stop them (the ones who weren't cheering them on, that is?). Has any of the groups involved in the march denounced them since Sunday?
If the answer is no, then this editorial is not only wrong, it is intentionally fraudulent.
Things are as they are, even if Portland Insight wishes they were otherwise.
If burning our soldiers in effigy and defecating on the American flag is "rudeness", what exactly is vulgar and disgusting?
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 11:49 AM
Here in the United States we have a thing called FREE SPEECH. I know that some of the Nazi's on the right, who are so-called patriots, would like to take that away. Regardless of how vile this small minority of people are, if you can't take it, then maybe it's YOU that needs to leave. Our troops are dying for freedom, yet you Nazi's on the right want to take those freedoms away. Shame on you, such hypocrites.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 11:56 AM
Would there be any different reaction or news coverage if this act had been done to a picture or drawing of Mohammad or John Kennedy or Martin Luthur King?
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 12:05 PM
I would like to call them miserable excuses for human beings but that would be giving them far too much credit. Even monkeys in a zoo have the excuse of boredom leading them to such behavior.
No these leftist brownshirts are something far less than human.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 12:06 PM
For the A/E crowd if you don't like it here then try
Iran. I'm sure they would enjoy your little escapade
just befor they cut off your head...The finish to the
sub-human defecating on the flag would been a HBIED.
and for a little reminder of what Ayman al-Zawahiri
had to say to all Americans,Covert to Islam or die!!!!
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 12:20 PM
There is a natural human reflex in all people with the spark God's light in them that revulses at the very idea of exposing one's anus. Think of how difficult it is to take a dump in a public stall with a barricade between you and the next crapper. You automatically shut that sphinxter up when you hear someone opening the door and entering the restroom. How far gone must this flag crapper be to drop his drawers and produce a stinky loaf in public. The spark of God has left that one. He is now lower than the neighbor dog you want to kick for leaving his message in your yard.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 12:21 PM
As a leftist, I will unequivically denounce these disgusting, poor excuses for human beings. But I also denounce those who use the actions of a radical fringe to smear anyone with whom they disagree.
Do anyone on the right acknowledge that those of us opposed to the war believe in this country but think that it's betraying it's nobel calling with poorly thought out policy?
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 12:23 PM
Imagine admitting that you are a leftist. I'd rather die.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 12:28 PM
John, I'm sure that there a lot of Americans who love this country and are opposed to the war in Iraq or war in general.
The problem is that we can pull out of Iraq but we can't pull out of the war.
No matter what else, the behavior that started this article and thread is reprehensible. No civilized human being could tolerate such an abomination. Never mind the flag.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 12:34 PM
I have never been so ashamed at the American people in my whole life. I was in the Navy and I am also a dependent of a 21 yr Retired Navy Man and it sickens my heart as to what these Protestors around the country are stooping to. They are demoralizing our Troops. This makes me wonder what Our troops will come home to and have to encounter when they meet these hateful wretched people who would burn effigies of a USA SOLDIER. My Heart cries out to the brave men and women who do hold this country dear and feel it is worth fighting for. War protestors are getting out of hand , Stepping over the Line. I fear our Country is falling from within. Our people are headed for a Civil War if something is not done. The Left will not yield, and the Right will not yield. and with no civilty. Our peaceful Nation is turning into a 3rd world Country before Our eyes.
A Nation without God will not STAND, And God is being ripped from America's Core.
For too long we have sat idly by and let the extreme left slowly take over our Morals and Values. The TV screens are full of sex drugs and violence. I remember a time when working on Sunday was alost unheard of. Have we forgotten the basics of family. Now the Family has No Time to spend enjoying each other because we have to work 2 jobs to feed the politicians pockets. Today we have Mothers who are getting their babies cut out of their tummy's, Men kidnapping, raping and killing little children, and the schools indoctrinating our children about politics, No God, and Homosexuality is Good. I wonder if this is all a dream or if My Country is so far lost that we can't get a handle on it and rehabilitate what damage we have done to our lack of WILL To Fight.
Well after this past weekends events in Portland and burning American Flags and burning the effigy of a American Soldier as the Oregon citizens stood there watching with smiles on their faces snapping photos like they were at the Barnum and Bailey Circus, and seeing the snapshots and videos of the children defacing memorials while their so called loving parents watching in amusement,Proud of what they are doing. I think of a song,
America America, God shed his grace on thee, and crown thy good with Brotherhood, from sea to shining sea.
Who are these brothers? Who are these Fellow Americans that would deny Our Country, Our Flag, Our Soldiers? Who display their evil works openly in our streets in a time of WAR, Who Disregard the lives of our Soldiers past and present who have faught for our freedom and others freedoms, while giving the enemy a thumbs up. Who disrespect our Flag, the symbol of what we stand for. To Disgrace the Very Core Of Our Country's existance? I call these people the Enemy from within.
Is this the Brotherhood we have to look forward to? Who live among US hiding behind signs and masks? These Protestors have No Shame and put Our Troops in danger and will continue to put our Country in danger. They say they care, but their eyes and hearts are blackened by lies, hate and deceit. All because they were told to Hate BUSH. Sad state of events when some Americans will stoop to new lows, turn on their own that have sacrificed so much and expected so little in return. God Forgive Us for What We have done to this Great Nation. For those in Office who voted for the WAR then, And now turn their backs on the ones they sent to do their bidding.... They throw in Spinach, Lettuce and Chickens for 20 Billion instead of supporting the Mission they sent them in to Do. Not to mention a Timetable only tells the enemy our plan in advance, like telling a robber when your leaving the door unlocked.
For all the Veterans Past and Present and Future, Thank You for Your Sacrifices, Your Heroism Will Never Be FORGOTTEN.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 12:35 PM
John
You lose credibility when you toss off a one sentence denunciation of the protesters in question, and then use it as a springboard to attack "the right".
For the record, not everyone who supports our policy in Iraq is "the right". And not everyone who is dissatisfied with it is on the left.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 12:43 PM
But they support the troops!!!
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 12:43 PM
Nice sentiments for an op-ed piece that clearly supports the "peace demonstrators."
I wonder if the writer of this op-ed piece would be so supportive of a group of Patriot Guard Riders, or Move America Forward marchers if they were to converge on leftist Portland.
NO mention is made whether or not the punk who did the defecating was arrested, if for no other reason than indecent exposure. Or is that not a law in leftist Oregon any more?
The absolute anarchy I've been reading about in the news associated with Oregon convinces me that that is a part of the country that is best left to the defeatists and socialists that seem to infest it. It's a shame. It's probably a nice place otherwise.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 12:45 PM
I have to jump back in here. While I'm hacked off at this incident, I am also disgusted at these comments about how we should shoot these thugs, or punch them, or club them. Come on, people. Don't sink to the level of Democratic Underground.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 12:46 PM
Editorial response:
Some of the comments that this reader was referring to that attempt to suggest, promote or incite violence were removed.
James Marks
Webmaster
Pamplin Media Group
I agree with you. Pulling out now is a bad idea. That's why I didn't march. And thank you for acknowledging that we can love this country but disagree on the war.
I don't dispair that some ahole deficates on the flag. what the flag represents will long outlast that scums life. I dispair that we have become so polarized that the left and the right fight each other instead of finding common ground.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 12:46 PM
Beyond Disgusting Behavior is accepted in today's world thanks to the Political Correctness Poison which has replaced common sense.
Mollypitcher
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 12:47 PM
sigh* the worst part is NO ONE and i mean NO One stopped it from happening in the first place.
To see it happening in front of oneself and not stopping it is apathy
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 01:04 PM
I got a "message" for you peaceniks.
Why the hell should we (servicemen) listen to anything you have to say when you not only tolerate the presence of those who commit these types of acts, but you condone, or encourage them?
Why the hell should _I PAY ANY ATTENTION_ to someone who tolerates those who burn an image of _me_ in effigy?
Here's why we won't listen to you;
We don't respect you, we don't trust you, and we don't believe you.
An Air Force pogue.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 01:05 PM
If this is what passes for rudeness in Oregon I'd hate to see what is considered vile, disgusting and obscene.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 01:06 PM
It looks like the Current Demo party has thrown in with a pretty rough crowd. This group is not far from brown shirts of old
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 01:28 PM
A word to the wise: these idiots who are defecating on and burning our flag and burning our troops in effigy, and vandalizing recruiting offices had better watch their step.
You "USEFUL IDIOTS" are really pissing off alot of patriotic veterans and active duty troops and believe me, you cowards DO NOT want what they will be puttin' down. I dare any of those fools to try some retarded stunt like that in front of Rolling Thunder.
Come on, MAKE MY DAY!
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 01:29 PM
but as a person who is offended as much as you by the actions of the fringe, can you see that since the dominant response on this thread is threats of violence toward those with whom you disagree I don't have much sympathy with your viewpoint?
Is it not possible that we can disagree - even disagree viamently - and still treat each other on the issues instead of school yard bullying?
Freepers - you claim to win on substance, but I mostly see attempts at inimitation here. It's wrong if DU does it. Are you no better?
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 01:49 PM
"Most of the people who marched on Sunday fully understand this. And by singling out the few who didn’t, we don’t intend to place thousands of demonstrators under one label. But the actions of a few do create a public perception that at least some advocates for peace are anti-American, anti-police and far out of step with mainstream values."
Earth to Editor, Hello..., Through selective highlighting of minority summary arguments, singling out the lone report that supports an erroneous position while ignoring a mountain of contrary evidence, supporting a violent enemy with cash and supplies, Creating an atmosphere where discourse and dialogue are replaced with invective and an automatic discounting of motive, the Anti All War, ABBB has set the stage for such activity.
By not vigorously opposing acts like the spray painting of the Capitol (and not calling Congressional leaders on the actions which kept the Capitol Police handcuffed during the act), burning of the Nations Flag, and cheering on numerous, way too numerous, other acts of vandalism the mass of demonstrators has already given their consent to such activity, as a right of "Free Speech" earned and kept by the blood and sweat of the very military their acts subvert.
And now they are surprised and shocked that America would lump them together with those who commit these acts?
Go figure.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 01:52 PM
To those vets and active duty people on the thread - Thank you from the bottom of my heart for the freedoms your actions give me and mine.
To those patriots who dont serve in the military, its about time we give our boys and girls in uniform better backing here in the states so they can do what they need to elsewhere.
I for one will not tolerate something like this occuring where I live.
Each patriot, take their little piece of wall and defend it from pukes like those in the article. The only way these jokers have gotten any traction is by all of us being too busy, too tired or too preoccupied to stand eye to eye with them and make them flinch.I'm not a big guy, but I am MORE than willing to do the right thing.
As for you who would destory freedom, defame our flag, and constantly attack our love of god and country, be aware that you are on notice.
This type of action wont stand. You are outnumbered, Outgunned and are about a knuckle hair away from waking up the sleeping giant that will show you exactly how many hard working americans of all races, creeds and colors are tired of your pathetic , brainless rants that attempt to destroy our country from within.
This aint vietnam and we wont be fooled again.
We've seen through your charade.
Truth and goodness always overcome. If your moral compass hasnt got a true north, you'd best get it one quickly.
There are a LOT more of us than you think, and we arent as weak or ignorant as you suppose.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 02:00 PM
That's right. Dump what little brains you have out of your ass and leave them there on the sidewalk. Hope no-one picked them up. It might be catchy!
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 02:02 PM
As an American Soldier (former Marine) in Iraq, this only affirms my vile hatred for the Left-wingers as it only heightens their symbolism over substance values.
We can not trust the Left-leaning democrats to win the White House as both Clinton and Ubama wants a rapid withdrawal. When Hillary "promised" to ensure we are properly outfitted and trained prior to deployment, that sent shivers through our guys back. She'll gut our military and leave the Hugo Chavez and Ortegas strongly entrenched while they openly support terrorist nations (Iran).
I can only imagine my feelings if I were driving by and seeing that happen to my flag that I defend each day. God help that son of a bitch if that happens near me. They will have this former Marine standing tall in front of him and dare the SOB to retake "my flag".
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 02:51 PM
Oh my, what do you say about an act like this!!! I am so glad that the marches I attend carry American flags with pride. Who are these people that act this way and where to they come from? God bless America and those who serve!!
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 03:05 PM
What most people in this country, and the Western World, don't get is that we don't have a choice in the matter. We ARE at War. It's a religious war and will probably last many years as so many religious wars have. If we don't realize this, we are bound to lose more than a political fight.
Somebody sh_ts in Lefty's yard but Lefty blames himself. Sounds like he has a guilt complex or doesn’t think too highly of himself. The culprit doesn’t care. He just see's Lefty's inaction and thinks him weak (makes him detest Lefty more). This culprit is on a mission. Four years is nothing to him. Three generations of his descendants will make a true effort in his eyes. 6000 lives is but a moment. He hates you more than he loves his own children. You think he cares whose "fault" it is? You think Gandhi’s methods would work here? Dream on you self loathing, reality denying, spoiled children. Western civilization and Western secularism are not guaranteed by history nor is self preservation guaranteed by nature. Let's focus
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 03:10 PM
All you so-called leftists, peace activists, patroits or whatever you call yourself make me sick in your hypocrisy. If you're so patriotic, what about the First Amendment? Does that mean anything to you? This was a SYMBOLIC ACT OF EXPRESSION - which is protected by the First Amendment - it is not violence. Besides, only the people who actually burned the effigy know exactly what they were expressing. All you CONSUMERS of the expression have only you're INTERPRETATION of what it means. Did you ever think that perhaps the reason the effigy was burned in the first place was maybe to create DIALOGUE? Same thing goes for you so-called leftist peace activists. How peaceful is a society that doesn't tolerate free speech? Bottom line is everyone that is against the war and continues to pay taxes is complicit and has blood on their hands. Protest, AT BEST, is an EXPRESSION of discontent with the status quo to help raise awareness and create dialogue/network with other people to create some actual ACTION that STOPS war. Supporting the military is violence and its up to each individual of every nation to start pulling their support away from war criminals one by one.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 03:53 PM
We have people dying every day in the Texas desert and in inner tubes between Cuba and Florida trying to get here. If these losers discussed in the article hate America so bad, why don't we have some exchange program where they get to get out and we get to have the people who really want to come here and make it here in the greatest country on God's green earth. At the very least they should have thought about the kids. If they have no concern for that, they have no concern for anything, much less peace or any positive idea.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 04:23 PM
I cannot believe my nation has come to this. As a child, I grew up on the laps of my grandfathers, both of whom fought in WWII. One in Korea. They taught me to fold the flag with respect. Took me into the woods, taught me to build a fire, to survive on my own, and to see this land for the beautiful place it was.
I grew up naive, completely unaware that such hatred existed. And for that, I'm grateful. My great nation, whose people donate more of their time and earnings to service and charity than any other on the planet, is also scarred with these vermon.
And yet it seems that within the past 15 years or so things have been changing. Have we replaced faith with this? Have we replaced dignity, honor, and modesty with this?
What a complete failure as a society. This is wholly unacceptable. I cannot believe no one put this to an end--brought the effigy down, extinguished the fire. Those who would abandon the Iraqis now: you support the execution of tens of thousands of Iraqi citizens at the hands of Islamists with zero regard for human life.
It is not US soldiers killing the innocent. No, that would be the Islamists--very similar to the group we have here protesting in Portland--only a heck of a lot more brave.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 04:23 PM
I saw this type of garbage back in the 60's and 70's during Vietnam.
Same people, same message, same antics, same crap.
They were commie traitors then, and they still are. The only thing that has changed is the level of hatred. This time, I fear these nutcases (and most of them are) are going to reach too far, and when they do, someone is going to react.
Can you say "civil war"?
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 05:13 PM
"sn" That is one hell of a "dialogue" your folks are about to start. I call BS on that right now.
BS on this act being an Expression of discontent,
BS on this act trying to raise any awareness,
BS on this act that is an attempt to stop anything, much less a war.
In history it is noted that some of the biggest War Criminals were those who did nothing to stop violent and inhuman acts against other men. Little of your dialogue will have any effect on those who kill children, target women and old men for the news coverage it generates. Oh, By The Way, they did not volunteer to be shields either.
How is this "dialogue" you offer going to stop that? It isn't.
There is a huge difference between those who use violence for violence sake and the members of the United States Military. If you defend defecating on the flag, you defend defecating on the the men and women involved in ending the cycle of nonsensical violence which is promoted by and inherent in the very acts of terror you now find yourself defending.
I don't see how your beliefs, no matter how pretty or nicely stated, make any difference when the practical application of those beliefs results in the death and enslavement of millions.
Pull your support away from war criminals, you bet. But you better make sure you know what is and is not criminal, or you may guilty of war crimes yourself.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 05:15 PM
Sorry guys, but the defecating loons of Portland are amateurs. If this had happened in San Francisco they would have crapped on both an American AND an Israeli flag. Because for some reason A.N.S.W.E.R. has a thing about Jews... or as anyone with open eyes calls it: anti-semitism. Brownshirts indeed...
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 05:37 PM
You have to be pretty whacked to try to blame conservatives for the behavior of these extreme-left pigs. I have been to counter-demonstrations at events like this, and I've yet to see "peace" activists police their own in any way, shape, or form. Furthermore, this isn't as isolated an incident as some would have us all believe. There are different degrees of hate each "peace" activist is willing to publicly express, but make no mistake - this IS about HATE. If it's not hatred of America or the troops, it's hatred of the President of the United States or conservatives in general. That's a fact.
In closing, I have this to say: GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS, THEIR CIC, OUR VETERANS, AND THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. To all the veterans and active duty reading this: THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE TO OUR GREAT NATION.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 06:08 PM
i said I wish I'd been there to put my fist in the guys face that did it, and I meant that. I spent 6 years of my life voluntarily defending that guys right to expression, but people need to know there are common decency limits. Freedom of expression doesn't mean freedom from consequences. And when someone poops on flag or burns a soldier in effigy in my presence, this former soldier isn't going to watch, this soldier is going to act.
for more on this disgusting act, check out the video
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=24900_Video-_Portland_Anarchists_Burning_US_Soldier_in_Effigy&only
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 06:33 PM
Why do these protesters hide behind black masks, or any masks at all? If they are so correct and righteous, show your damned faces and who you are. But, that would make you truly accountable for your actions. And, some employers might see your mug at one of these idiotic protests and not hire you. The first ammendment protects your right to speak, but doesn't protect you from making an ass of yourself, nor does it protect you from others calling you out on just how wrong and stupid you are.
Also, if these "folks" ever came accross real fascism, they'd be begging for the US military to save thier sorry butts. They are living in a fantasy world.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 07:07 PM
"daryl glenn"
Excactly, madrassa's in Pakistan and all over the world are cranking out kids that only know the Koran, and have been more than brianwashed, and will kill us as adults.
This fight, sadly will last generations. Sad fact that we live in this instant gratification society where we want everything neatly wrapped up instantly NOW. We want short answers, where short answers will not work.
This truly is a different kind of war. The enemy has patience. We do not.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 07:22 PM
What's most disturbing to me is that the editorial condemns the act NOT because it's simply unacceptable, but because it damaged the antiwar cause, and "undermined the message" of the other protestors. It seems to me that the stability of the nation is at risk when approximately half the country can't tell the difference between right and wrong, having been educated (indoctrinated) to think that everything is relative. They may call this progressive, but they're taking the whole country backwards, to a time before law. For some that's the intent, but for the rest, the natural consequences of such a worldview are going to come as a real shock. Eventually they'll be sorry, but that's little comfort to the rest of us because by then it may be too late to reverse course.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 08:26 PM
The Horror. A flag was desecrated.
If ONLY that hadn't happened then Hundreds of Thousands would still be alive.
The Horror.
Funny how there is no evidence of the act. Just a Republican stoolie making up lies.
Then again, 'evidence' is for only for the 'Reality-based' crazies.
The 'Republican Faithful' must have their 'graven images' to worship. If if they are only used to by Republican zealots to pretend they 'love America'.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 09:31 PM
Editorial response:
As stated before, the acts mentioned in the editorial were verified. The particular act in question actually was photographed by a Tribune photographer.
-Mark Garber, Tribune editorial board member
I completely agree with your editorial. And I have consistently been opposed to this trumped-up propaganda-built war since before it began.
I well understand the history of rightwing saboteurs infiltrating peace groups to promote violence and other repulsive acts. But since there's no evidence yet to make that claim here, I won't insist this was a set-up.
Whoever did these things were idiots.
With 69% of the country now opposing this war, that means approximately 207 million Americans are now opposed. Of that number, I'm sure there are extremists, fools and idiots, just as I'm sure they can be found in the approximately 93 million Americans supporting the war still.
Both discredit their positions when they commit outrageous acts.
In Washington DC that same weekend, while antiwar protestors marched, they were regularly subjected to vicious name-calling, hatefulness and threats by pro-war counter-protestors. They, too, deserve editorial censure.
One only needs to read through previous comments in this thread to see exactly what I mean: a whole lot of vicious heat with very little respectful light.
Clearly extremists on both sides need to recognize who the real enemies of our country are and how best to legally respond to them. Yes, that includes enemies both foreign and domestic, including terrorists, hostile governments who advance violence, as well as war profiteers and government officials who arm two sides in a conflict and provide covert aid and support to tyrants and terrorists with inevitable blowback repercussions.
But it doesn't include pro-war people with honest disagreements with my positions. They are not my enemies, nor traitors, nor deserving of deportation or imprisonment. Nor do the vast majority of people opposed to this war.
The guy who defecated on the flag should be prosecuted for public indecency and sentenced to community service in a VA facility. That would be a punishment fitting his crime and might, as well, teach him some badly needed lessons.
Let's maintain our perspective and act like rational and mature people on both sides. That's how civilization is best advanced.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 10:47 PM
The protestors should have drawn some cartoons that were offensive to Muslims - just a big a "crime" as burning a flag, surely?
Then the Right would have lept to their defence to be offensive,laughed and said "But it's just cartoons, don't get upset, be rational and civillised like us."
Read your American history, folks.
Your FBI and police have a looooong history of infiltrating "subversive" groups and carrying out actions in their name.
Once it was teh Blacks, now it's the anti-war movement.
Anti-war?
Anti-war!
Keep an eye on the mad, bad anti-war students and vegetarian grannies. Support the arms trade. You know it makes sense.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 11:23 PM
What most left wingers dont realize, this behaviour is what their ideology breeds, this is the result of the anti-Americanism taught by the left: total anarchy. This is why Conservatives have been screaming to hold the line with values, both in the family and outside in society. Because without Moral values, this is the obvious result: anarchy. Publically disgusting acts that no one can judge because leftists aren't supposed to judge. So, Commies, what's your verdict on this?
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 11:24 PM
These "protesters" (traitors) are not the fringe. This kind of behavior takes place all the time. The surprising thing is that a newspaper actually covered it this time. Of course what the newspaper WILL NOT cover is that these "peace" protests are almost ALL funded by communist or other groups bent on destroying the US. Many of these people do not vote, but those that do vote exclusively Democrat. The Democrat party is home to all manner of people who hate the US. It is the one legitimate vehicle available to those who want to see the US in ashes.
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 11:48 PM
"This type of action wont stand. You are outnumbered, Outgunned and are about a knuckle hair away from waking up the sleeping giant that will show you exactly how many hard working americans of all races, creeds and colors are tired of your pathetic , brainless rants that attempt to destroy our country from within."
Treatening the anti-war majority with physical violence? Pathetic. Don't you clowns realize that you are losing power?
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 11:55 PM
Plausible deniability, eh. I don't see the same considerations given to the Bush Administration or the American military when a very few loose cannons like at Abu Ghraib are constantly headlined by a scandalmongering lamestream media and trumpeted by those suffering from anti-Bush Derangement Syndrome.
What's even more interesting is how the liberal media has refused to EVER nationally publish multitudes of stories about "peace protests" turning wild, destroying or defacing public property, or assaulting the police the last two years. We're starting to see the unraveling of the Big Lie of many liberal war protestors about "We Support the Troops". You can't possibly "Support the Troops" if you denigrate their mission, consider their Commander-in-Chief to be Hitler, vote for politicians who cut and slash the military budget (like they did starting under the Clinton Administration) every chance they get, or engage in a very tepid response to those on your own side of the aisle who so disrespect the very institution which gives them the liberty to engage in such seditious and un-American behavior. There, I said it.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 12:06 AM
"Rudeness"
Unfortunately, the editorial didn't reference the audio portion of the associated event, and the repeated attempts at trying to get the effigy's BDUs to catch fire (including, finally dousing them using charcoal starter fluid) by the brave -- hidden behind the sweatshirt hoods -- young protestors.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 01:00 AM
A question: Did they purchase carbon credits for that incineration?
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 01:01 AM
"defecated on a burning U.S. flag." Really, some critical thinking skills would be useful here. (1) this is like a parody of a stereotype; (2) if kids were around, the parents of said kids would have a fit; (3) defecating on a burning flag would be more of a risk to the gonads than most people would tolerate; (4) (the biggie) there are A LOT of police around at these events, they are everywhere; this guy would have been arrested in less than a heartbeat.
A lot of commenters here apparently have seen too much stock footage from the Vietnam era. I was at the January march -- I am a middle-aged soccer mom, a member of the PTA, a professional, a regular church-goer and a Sunday School teacher, and more than half of the people I saw looked just like me except a little older. The rest were the adolescent and college-aged kids of people just like me. The mood was friendly. The only angry people I saw were the 15 counter-protestors. That is the reality of peace marches now, no matter how much people have their heads stuck in 40-year-old stereotypes. Communists bent on destroying America fund the protests? This is 2007, not 1957.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 01:38 AM
Defecating on the American flag. My, my, my... Newsflash for you Portland Tribune: That IS the message. That act, and so many more like it, perfectly captures who you are and who your audience is. Please stop pretending otherwise.
I am glad that this type of act is constitutionally protected. I want the entire country to know exactly who and what the anti-war crowd is. I want the entire country to see exactly what these imbeciles think of their own country. And brother, did we ever.
Arrogant, ignorant, spoiled, America-hating cretins. Who am I describing - the protesters or your newsroom? (hint... both) You must be so proud.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 01:43 AM
But have you Identified WHO did the act?
The person could have just as easily been someone who participated in the march specifically to perform such an act in order to 'mar' the proceedings.
A person NOT interested in ending the war but making anti-war protesters look bad.
If you have a photograph then post it up, or provide access by other means. The person if nothing else committed the crime of 'indecent exposure' and should be charged.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 01:45 AM
The folks who did this are anarchists -- and they stand for nothing but chaos and disruption. Don't confuse them with the left. They are on another political spectrum altogether.
However, I haven't seen much decency and respect or nonviolence in the rabid response from folks here. There are dozens of violent threats against the left from eliminationist folks on this post. Should your violent hatred be used to tar all the folks on the right? Should we judge the Republican Party by the words of Tom Jones and Matt above? I think not.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 02:33 AM
Sending GOP operatives to defecate on a flag at a Peace March is something straight out of Richard Nixon's/Karl Rove's 'dirty tricks department'.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 02:45 AM
I once saw a photo of some liberal moonbat stomping on a burning US flag, it's captioned "How dare you question my patriotism", lol. Sums it all up perfectly. I for one and sick and tired of them. And whoever it was complaining about being subjected to "vicious name calling" by the counter-protesters, get over it. We have been listening to you wackjobs calling Bush a terrorist, comparing him to Hitler, for years. Not to mention all the hatred, intolerance and bigotry towards Christians and Conservatives in general. It sure hasn't been Conservatives who spat on our troops, called them "baby killers". It sure wasn't Conservatives who burned down ROTC buildings. It wasn't Conservatives who vandalized recruiting stations or burned a US soldier in effigy.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 03:49 AM
So why where were all the "professional" journalists and photographers while all this was going on?
And why was there no reporing on it until the story had broken on the Internet?
The truth is that the "news media" is more interested in advancing the party line than they are in reporting news. If this hadn't come out on the Internet, none of us would have ever heard about it. The "news media" would have quietly censored their reporting so as not to adversely affect the cause.
Hands off Darfur!!
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 04:24 AM
the "peace" message wasn't "marred" by hate. the "peace" message IS hate.
progressives celebrate the pro-north vietnam movements of the 60's and their role in the genocide which followed a u.s. pullout from the pacific.
at the rally pictured here, they were marching for the killing fields to begin sooner this time.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 04:51 AM
Look, the great "silent majority" of Americans are disgusted with liberals, and this is just another example of why.
The House vote to deny financial support to the troops is the equivalent of crapping on the flag.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 05:15 AM
The concern expressed by a previous comment that the physical posture required in order to defecate on a burning flag would expose the defecator's gonads to danger makes an erroneous assumption.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 05:18 AM
Now that you have another generation of this form of American dissident, please keep them on your side of the boarder.
Every time you have a war, they somehow drop their manhood and cross over to our side to hide, and now we've had to put up with all the loons you allowed to escape into the British Columbia area for the last 35yrs.
Thanks a bunch, but no thanks.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 05:47 AM
Hey, what kind of reaction do you think taking a Quran out in the middle of Pioneer Square, defecating on it and lighting it on fire would ilicit?
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 05:50 AM
Owlbear....you are a pathetic lefty who cannot come to the realization that it was people of your ilk that did this. By you own twisted logic the slaughter of innocents in Iraq is actually being funded by the Democratic Underground to make the Bush administration look bad. No one has come up with ANY proof that the DU is NOT responsible, so therefore they must be. Standard lefty logic. I fell it's true, never mind the photographic and witness evidence that says otherwise.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 05:59 AM
Open air fires with no extinguishers, public defecation and clear violations of the "fighting words" exception to the First Amendment. Why no arrests?
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 06:10 AM
Its interesting that some accuse these "protesters" of being paid or "put up to this". Those who make such accusations are either not familiar with the Black Bloc or they are complete liars.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 06:13 AM
Stephanie,
the reason that most of the poeple you saw at the march you are shamelessly whitewashing were your age and older is because they are exhibits of your "40 year-old stereotypes" of the vietnam era protest movement. that movement was inspired to protest primarily because of their affinity with the sino-soviet collonial project in vietnam. their loyalties were with the the north vietnamese.
the "world can't wait" group is not merely communist inspired, it is the project of the revolutionary communist party, a maoist group led by a 60's radical named clark kissenger. rthe rcp's initial activist group was called "not in our name", which formed the day after 9-11 to oppose the war in afghanistan which you would probably pretend to support if asked by a reporter.
but the primary organizer of the march international day of protest is a group called international answer. answer is the activist project of the iac, which in turn is the activist arm of the workers world party, a stalinist group which traces its lineage back to the schism formed within the original communist party when some members came to dissaprove of soviet imperialism. the wwp is the faction which approved. the wwp were suipporters of the soviet invasion of afghanistan. this connection between the wwp and answer has been known for some time, so within the last couple of years, the connection was hidden behind a front group named the "party for socialism and liberation". the iac, the wwp, answer and the new front group still operate from the same office in washington dc.
it is suspected, though not proven, that answer get's a portion of it's funding from the north korean state, but far more disturbing is the fact about the iac and answer's founding signatory, ramsey clark. ramsey clark, often euphamisticly referred to by noting our nation's shame of having him as our nation's atorney general during the lbj administration, is saddam hussein's lawer, or was until his execution.
so the "peace" protest was an astroturf fraud organized by saddam's lawer. i don't expect the maintream media to be quite so blunt, but the fact that the pertainent facts outlined above aren't mentioned in any coverage of any of the "peace" movement's activities is inexcusable. the people are being lied to.
i will add one more thing. this is not bad for the progressives. this is their first step in messaging.
americans of dignity and decency will express their outrage for a couple of weeks, and then the rebuttles will come. at first, couched in a lot of "on the one hand" this and "on the other hand" that, but soon it will be framed as a first ammendment issue to the exclusion of the meaning of the actual incident being critisized.
once ordinary americans are cowed or shouted down as enemies of free speech, the defenses will come. and soon after the defenses are establishged, the progressive left will be able to completely shed the pretence that they've labored under until now. they will be able to smear the troops in public the way they have been doing in tighter circles, saying that of course young men join the military because young men want to kill, and that the young men who join the u.s. military do so because they are racists who want to kill arabs, and the troops will be smeared openly with the slanderous charges the progressive left have so far only been open enough to sling at obtuse targets like "out government or "our society".
it will happen because the only reason progressives have hid behind the message that they "support the troops" thus far is because, faced with an all-volunteer force, they hoped they could foment mutiny and dissertion. during the vietnam conflict, the draft was a huge asset to them. they miss it. they lie to schoolchildren that there is a daft and antiwar congressmembers have introduced legislation reinstating the draft. faced instead with an all-volunteer force comprised of men and women who join because they possess values of duty, honor and patriotism which the left rejects, the progressive left may soon be ready to give up on the lie that they support the troops.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 06:14 AM
Hey, can you put up a picture?
It was photographed, right?
Or can we soon expect a "photoshop" from Karl Rove's Ethics Department?
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 06:27 AM
Editorial response:
We have photographs, taken by our own photographers, of a soldier being burned in effigy, the burning of a U.S. flag and of a protester defecating on that flag.
First, the photograph of the protestor defecating on the flag is simply too graphic for us to consider for publication in either the newspaper or on the web site.
Second, the photographs depict extreme and intentionally provocative behavior of approximately 15 people and are not, in the opinion of our reporters on the scene, representative of the behavior of the 15,000+ people who participated in the protest march.
To publish photographs of the most extreme behavior of a group of individuals who make up roughly 0.1% of the participants in an event would not, in our judgement, be a fair representation of that event.
James Marks
Webmaster
Pamplin Media Group
liveleak(dot)com / view ? i = 38e _ 1174691271
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 06:30 AM
Editorial response:
It's not necessary to rewrite the URL as you have. We remove HTML from comments in an effort to reduce comment spam but we generally allow URLs to remain if they're relevant to the discussion.
The link is to video, purportedly taken at the protest march, of a soldier being burned in effigy:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=38e_1174691271
James Marks
Webmaster
Pamplin Media Group
i just wanted to note in that video that, aware that they might be exposed by this display, a second type of progressive leftist protester interjects with her own sort of insult against the troops:
“what about the troops who are brainwashed?”
this infantalizing, castrating smear, thought by people who believe themselves to be elites of some kind to be "compassionate", is arguably more offensive than they effigy burning.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 06:40 AM
Re: "Sending GOP operatives to defecate on a flag at a Peace March is something straight out of Richard Nixon's/Karl Rove's 'dirty tricks department'."
Yeah, that's the ticket. Probably some young Republican. (The sound you heard when you posted? That was thousands of pairs of eyes rolling.)
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 06:56 AM
Still waiting for evidence this even took place...
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 06:56 AM
Editorial response:
Assuming you're referring to the burning of the soldier in effigy, the burning of the flag and the defecation on that flag by a protester, they did, in fact, take place according to our reporter and photographer who covered the march and witnessed the incident. Those acts were committed by a group of approximately 15 people out of a crowd of 15,000 and were not, in the judgement of our staff, representative of the protest march as a whole.
James Marks
Webmaster
Pamplin Media Group
Well, as a "lefty sicko" I also find this particular behavior disgusting. I would gladly help any movement toward troops withdrawl, even any movement designed to impeach and try for war crimes our entire White House right now. But, the behavior described here is not moving anywhere except towards more censorship and military govrenment control. So I hope these folks were arrested on public indecency and assault charges.
Impeach Bush and Cheney! War criminals!
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 07:08 AM
Owlbear,
Still waiting for anything you leftists think Rove ever did has actually taken place.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 07:10 AM
kija, your post is risable. really, i mean that. and it's mainly due to your choice of the word "eliminationist".
you say that matt's remarks were "eliminationist." what did he say? he said he'd like to have punched the effigy-burner in the face.
specifying an individual for individual punnishment for a specific act is hardly "eliminationist". further, punching a dude in the face hurts a little, but it hardly "eliminates" them.
to contrast, matt indicated that he served. well, an effigy isn't an individual. it's a sybol for whichever entire class or group it represents. and so matt was threatened by inclusion with the effigy. in fact, in the video linked here, the progressive left protesters chanted along, "gonna start a bonfire. put the soldiers on top." not, you'll note, "the soldier" but "soldiers."
if you want to attribute matt's justifiable outrage to republicans in general, be my guest. if matt had been there and had punched the effigy-burner in the face, i would've footed his bail afterwards.
i can't find "tom jones" in the comments. maybe he was provoked by the incident of "peace" protesters burning an effigy of a u.s. serviceman and deficating on a flag to say something truly rash and his comments were removed. maybe he, like matt, also served and was directly threatened with "eliminationism" by the "peace" protester's effigy.
finally, i see the word "eliminationist" in someone's post and the first thing that occurrs ro me is that they're avid readers of orcinus, a blog dedicated to a primary mission of finding the misdeeds of obscure white supremacist groups and portraying them as things which characterize them as intitiatives of the gop and all who are not in lockstep with the progressive left. it's an odd and untennable preoccupation since neo nazis oppose both capitalism and the war in iraq, believeing them to be jewish plots. so, your mewling about not tarring people with broad brushes comes off as incredible and insincere.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 07:17 AM
Yeah why then is Rove so afraid of testifying under oath?
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 07:19 AM
i'd like everyone to note what owlbear1 is doing. he is the fifth progressive to demand proof since a link to video of the incident was posted further up in the comments.
you see, it's not that he can't read. he's trolling for lazy minds. he figures that if the last comment in the thread is one which supports the lie that the incident never happened and is just a bunch of loose talk by members of the "corporate" media, then a certain amount of the people just scanning the comments will assume that that is the case and move on, though anyone curious enough can just scan the thread and find it.
this is how militant and shameless the progressive left is about lieing.
liveleak(dot)com / view ? i = 38e _ 1174691271
remove the spaces and replace "(dot)" with a period.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 07:29 AM
Editorial response:
It's not necessary to rewrite the URL as you have. We remove HTML from comments in an effort to reduce comment spam but we generally allow URLs to remain if they're relevant to the discussion.
The link is to video, purportedly taken at the protest march, of a soldier being burned in effigy:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=38e_1174691271
James Marks
Webmaster
Pamplin Media Group
According to police spokeswoman Officer Cathe Kent, the confrontation began when a splinter group at the end of the march tried to pull a bicycle patrol officer into their group...
"This was a splinter group. It was not the group we negotiated with for weeks before the march. Those people had a peaceful march and went home," said Kent.
===========
More and more it looks a lot like Republicans hoping to mar a peaceful event.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 07:30 AM
Re: Rudeness mars peace message
Re: "Sending GOP operatives to defecate on a flag at a Peace March is something straight out of Richard Nixon's/Karl Rove's 'dirty tricks department'."
Yeah, that's the ticket. Probably some young Republican. (The sound you heard when you posted? That was thousands of pairs of eyes rolling.)
"Commies Aren't Cool"
(Not verified)
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Don't hog all the Kool-Aid - your buddies had a quick thought and are now are thirsty.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 07:31 AM
I have no clue who owns 'liveleak.com so forget about tricking me into going to any site you might provide.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 07:31 AM
J, You are a Bush apologist. You have ZERO credibility.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 07:32 AM
you know who were totally outrageous republican plants?
the weather underground.
until they were pardoned and settled into comfy university jobs. now they're bona fide progressives again.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 07:35 AM
lol! you're a crackup owly.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 07:36 AM
At least I'm not a torture loving bigot...
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 07:36 AM
no, i oppose the sunni baathist dead-enders whom you lionize as the "resistance".
come to think of it, here's a cute picture of a progressive leftist wearing a sunni scarf in solidarity with the people who are detonating chlorine bombs in markets and sawing peoples' heads off in iraq at the washington dc answer march.
thearisstocrat(dot)com / images / general _ images / sunni _ Scarf _ At _ Answer _ Rally _ 3 - 17 - 07(dot)jpg
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 07:46 AM
Yeah, I'm a "kool aid" drinker because I think those punks really WERE anarchists. Far more likely this was an orchestrated plot by Rove and his minions! I'll bet 9/11 was an inside job, too. Man, that Rove is powerful!
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 07:49 AM
Dead-enders?
Rummy is that you?
How's life treating you since you got canned?
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 07:51 AM
Lefties: "I want proof this happened!"
Normal People: "Ok, here's a link to some video"
Lefties: "I won't look at it!"
The standard "La La La I can't hear you La La La" crap that children do.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 07:55 AM
CAC, the funny thing is that progressives actually have forged things like photos and documents to support their version of things. i'm not just talking about the staged and photoshopped images from israel's war with hezbollah, or the fake documents used by cbs news, but also the fake service records used by the progressive "peace" group, ivaw, to back up ordinary progressives like jesse macbeth, who pretended to be a soldier so he could tell pohoney war crimes stories.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 07:57 AM
Well, its been proven there were no WMDs in Iraq but that hasn't stopped the Republican Faithful from still INSISTING there were...
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 08:01 AM
So much Hate from the "Tolerant Left". So much advocation of violence from the "Peaceful Left".
This video should be shown nationwide on every news program, so the average Joe can actually see the REAL face of the peace movement.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 08:01 AM
Its been proven that Saddam was not aiding Al Qaeda but that hasn't stopped the Republican Faithful from stating it as a fact...
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 08:03 AM
Well, its been proven there were no WMDs in Iraq but that hasn't stopped the Republican Faithful from still INSISTING there were...
"owlbear1"
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Well, they were there at some point, unless all those Kurdish children who were gassed in 1987 was just a Karl Rove plot, too.
He had the weapons then, so why wouldn't he have had them later?
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 08:04 AM
And now all Anti-war protesters are condemned as Traitors because a dozen or so punks stage a disgusting display for attention...
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 08:06 AM
Zap, "Mushroom clouds over American Cities" was used by George Bush to declare the need for a "Pre-emptive first strike" because to wait any longer was to invite disaster.
You defend that LIE, with "Oh yeah, what about that gas attack he used 14 years earlier"?
Please.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 08:09 AM
The Clinton administration talked about firm evidence linking Saddam Hussein's regime to Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network years before President Bush made the same statements.
In 1998, a federal indictment by the Clinton Justice Department read: " al Qaeda reached an understanding with the government of Iraq that al Qaeda would not work against that government and that on particular projects, specifically including weapons development, al Qaeda would work cooperatively with the government of Iraq."
Oops.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 08:09 AM
I notice Clinton didn't order an invasion and occupation based on unconfirmed intelligence reports.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 08:13 AM
A lie about 14 years earlier? How about more recent. Guess all these Democrarts are lying, too. Let's see:
"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003 |
"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002 |
"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998
"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
- President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998
"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton.
- (D) Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, others, Oct. 9, 1998
"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998
"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 08:13 AM
Quoting from Newsmax are ya, zap?
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 08:15 AM
And they were WRONG...
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 08:16 AM
source for the claim the weapons still existed at the onset of the war was saddam's final declaration to unscom after the kamel brothers defected and told what they knew.
it was not a lie to say that there were wmd's, or at least it wasn't our lie, but saddam's.
saddam did aid particular al qaeda members, specificly, the perpetrators of the 93 wtc bombing.
saddam had a relationship, not with obl, but al qaeda's military strategist and second in command, ayman zawahiri, from his days of involvement with the muslim brotherhood.
these are facts.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 08:18 AM
How does quoting people who were wrong justify the Occupation?
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 08:18 AM
stand up, i love those clips!
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 08:18 AM
No, I am not quoting from NewsMax. I'm quoting the individuals in question, from places such as http://clinton.senate.gov/speeches/iraq_101002.html
etc...
But hey, when you dont' LIKE the message, attack the messenger. I know. It's the Lefts standard M.O.
Bottom line? No matter how much you try to spin, change the topic, point fingers, blame others, etc. it's simple: The Anarchist freaks like those described in this article, and in the photos, and in the videos, will always be associated with your side.
Too bad, so sad. Enjoy the fleas.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 08:20 AM
"And now all Anti-war protesters are condemned as Traitors because a dozen or so punks stage a disgusting display for attention..."
and because preogressive leftists rush to the scene of any mention of this incident or the dozens like it to shill, minimise and lie. bcause they agree.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 08:22 AM
Um, j...
"...and intelligence and law enforcement officials disagree on its conclusiveness — the links tying Yasin, Saddam and al-Qaeda are tentative."
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 08:23 AM
A dozen punks looking for attention
vs
A President and Vice-President hell bent for war.
hmmm...
BOTH GROUPS SHOULD BE IMPRISONED!
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 08:26 AM
"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001. " - Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-NY)
http://clinton.senate.gov/speeches/iraq_101002.html
After 9/11, Al Qaeda was our enemy (when Clinton was in office, they were too, but weren't the priority. Protecting Muslims in teh Balkans was, apparently). Just because Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11, he still provided aid, comfort, and sanctuary to those who attacked us. Just like the government of Afghanistan did - and you lefties are always either ignoring Afghanistan, or seem to agree it was justified.
If the invasion and occupation in Afghanistan is justified, then so it is for Iraq, too.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 08:28 AM
j. fleming, excellent point re: the left's forgeries. Another tactic I've noticed is their tendency to accuse their opponents of the very thing THEY are doing.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 08:32 AM
Because the AUMF to invade Afghanistan did not talk about terrorists from the past. It was very specific to those who perpetuated 9/11.
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IN GENERAL- That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.
====
and as your quote says, 'There is NO EVIDENCE Iraq's involvment in 9/11'
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 08:37 AM
Doesn't matter whether Iraq was involved with 9/11 - Iraq was involved with Al Qaeda. That should be good enough for anyone.
Well, for anyone but those who hate this country and want to see it destroyed.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 08:39 AM
And how exactly will America be destroyed by a Terrorist organization?
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 08:42 AM
"Earlier today, I ordered America's armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq. They are joined by British forces. Their mission is to attack Iraq's nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors.
Their purpose is to protect the national interest of the United States, and indeed the interests of people throughout the Middle East and around the world.
Saddam Hussein must not be allowed to threaten his neighbors or the world with nuclear arms, poison gas or biological weapons.
I want to explain why I have decided, with the unanimous recommendation of my national security team, to use force in Iraq; why we have acted now; and what we aim to accomplish."
William Jefferson Clinton, President
December 16, 1998
http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1998/12/16/transcripts/clinton.html
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 08:42 AM
Pssttt... Owl, dont' look now, but the AUMF also says, as you quoted:
"or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons."
I would say that offering "Sanctuary" to members of an organization that perpetrated 9/11 counts as "harboring"...
I suppose you'll answer with, "depends on the meaning of the word 'sanctuary'", eh?
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 08:45 AM
And how exactly will America be destroyed by a Terrorist organization?
"owlbear1"
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When I said, "those who hate this countryand want to see it destroyed" I wasn't talking about Terrorists. I was talking about Leftists.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 08:48 AM
No I'll point you to your own quotes that say "Saddam didn't have anything to do with 9/11"
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 08:49 AM
Zap who have been the ones trashing the constitution for the last 5 years?
Hint, "Leftist" weren't in power...
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 08:51 AM
No I'll point you to your own quotes that say "Saddam didn't have anything to do with 9/11"
"owlbear1"
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But he offered aid, and sanctuary to members of the organization that DID. Just like Afghanistan.
Besides, regime change in Iraq was a policy of the Clinton Administration long before the election of Bush or the events of 9/11.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 08:54 AM
Uhm, FT.
NO WMDs were found in Iraq. Maybe Clinton's bombing campaign in 1998 got them maybe there weren't there even then either.
But when George Bush said he KNEW Iraq possessed WMDs he was LIEING.
The proof of that was the LACK of WMDs in Iraq.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 08:55 AM
Zap who have been the ones trashing the constitution for the last 5 years?
Hint, "Leftist" weren't in power...
"owlbear1"
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Name one constitutional right you've actually lost in the last 5 years. Just one.
Good luck finding one. Now, if you're an enemy combatant, well, that would be different. You aren't a enemy combatant, are you?
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 08:56 AM
zap, Your talking about that al-qaeda stronghold that was up in Northern Iraq aren't you? The one that was in area that Saddam had no control over? The one that Bush order not be attacked?
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 08:57 AM
Ask the CLintons or Kerry about which ones they were talking about.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 08:58 AM
zap, I might be. I have after all criticized the Bush Administration and that only appears to be enough to garner the label "Traitor".
==============
The report by Inspector General Glenn A. Fine documents widespread FBI misuse of national security and exigency letters to collect personal data on citizens without seeking court orders or following Justice Department guidelines.
The letters function as subpoenas, allowing FBI agents to gather confidential information from commercial sources if it is deemed relevant to a case. Fine's audit surveyed 293 national security letters issued by the agency involving 77 investigations and found 22 instances of possible violation of FBI and Justice Department regulations, including some that may have broken legal statutes.
During the three-year time period of the audit sample, the FBI reported issuing more than 143,000 such letters, raising fear that the number of unjustified information breaches was high. Fine's sample indicated that the number of letters was actually underreported by as much as 22 percent. In 16 percent of the cases reviewed the letters were improperly issued. The report also documented that the FBI on numerous occasions improperly collected phone billing records on surveillance targets from phone companies by falsely claiming an emergency need when there was none.
======
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 09:01 AM
That is by the way a violation of the right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure.
Used be known as the 4th amendment.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 09:03 AM
stand up, owl's just being churlish and deliberately deceptive. there was a seperate aumf for iraq.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 09:04 AM
It is misleading for the media to refer to the small band of "anarchists" who show up at every rally wearing scarves to hide their faces as a "splinter group" or even a "fringe group". They are not a part of the peace movement at all, not a splinter or any other part. They are in fact an anti-peace movement group of counter-demonstrators. They show up to try and disrupt peace demonstrations. They hate the peace movement because we are, well, peaceful, which they apparently regard as selling out to whoever they think their enemies are instead of being violent as they are.
I demonstrate against the war here in Portland when I can, and the only time I saw those folks up close was when they were in the street in front of me once trying to block the march route. Rally monitors and police herded them to the side so we could pass while they shouted obscenities at us.
I don't know if the events described in the Tribune really happened. I can believe it, but no one I know saw or heard of any such thing until yesterday's editorial, 5 days after the march. And it was not a news story, it was an editorial with no confirmation of it's claims. Weirdly, the Tribune thinks we should have denounced something that we had not even heard of, and they did not bother to call any of the march sponsors to ask how they felt about the bizarre stuff. So I'll denounce it now; it's sickening. It's just what the hateful Michelle Malkin and her followers love to focus on, but that's unavoidable in a free society. And there is now way we are going to give up our freedom to dissent and stay home just because a few people try to mar it.
The march over-all was a beautiful and inspiring event. It was actually very main-stream, with community leaders participating and even the chief of police mingling with the crowd and shaking hands, sponsored by local churches and political groups. What could be more American or more patriotic?
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 09:05 AM
a-hem, dean, the video's been posted. your misinfo about the perps being republican counter-protesters isn't going to fly.
i've page-saved the indymedia page where there is much support, gloating and rationalization going on.
"support your local anarchist"
portland(dot)indymedia(dot)org / en / 2007 / 03 / 356335(dot)shtml
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 09:14 AM
Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy.
Enter Doug Feith...
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 09:15 AM
Thank you, DeanOR.
While those acts are obviously inappropriate and immature and have no place in a peace protest, the anti-peace, right-wing posters here demonstrate a collective juvenile attitude that is equally astounding.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 10:20 AM
sn here again. First off, I would like to say that I was not one of the people who participated in burning the effigy. Maybe they could of used a little bit BIGGER of a puppet so that passersby wouldn't be confused thinking that maybe an actual PERSON was being burned.. Maybe they could've done this, could've done that, to be honest, I wasn't even at the protest to see the event first hand so I can't say how realistic it LOOKED - but the point is, in actuality, it was not a real person. The way I see it, it was an ANARCHISTIC expression of discontent with violence, NOT PACIFISTIC expression of discontent with violence.
Most Anarchists are not pacifists, although some are. Anarchists believe in self-defense. By the way, there's plenty of books out there written by anarchists about what they believe in. I would say, "ABC of Anarchism" by Alexander Berkman is a good place to start.
Anyway, my point is, that where most pacifist so-called "peace activists" limit their tactics to SYMBOLIC expressions of discontent against the war, but are generally unwilling to take any DIRECT ACTION to stop the violence, ANARCHISTS believe in self-defense and the right of people to protect themselves and the right to help protect others from AGGRESSIVE acts of violence BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY to protect their lives, even if that means having to harm, or, worse case scenario, kill the aggressor in the act of defending yourself.
This actually puts us in closer ideological alignment with the troops then the pacifistic so-called "peace activists". The troops can sense their cowardice and the hypocrisy of their stance. However, while we agree with the troops that people have a right to defend themselves against aggression and protect others against agression also, we disagree with the troops that that is in actuality what they are doing. We believe they have been duped by the government and the corporate media into thinking they are doing something noble when in actuality they are killing for the profit of big business interests, chiefly: OIL. While we feel sorry for those that have been brainswashed into killing and giving their lives for a lie, when it escalates to this kind of level of violence, we feel we must take DIRECT ACTION to stop the violence. Some people may find the courage to directly physically confront the aggressors to stop the violence, but the LEAST we can do, if we are REALLY concerned with withdrawing our direct support of it, is to stop paying taxes for war. This can be easily done, well within legal limits and I suggest for those who are interested in really stopping war by graduating from protest into action to contact your local war tax resisters league: www.wartaxresistance.com They are having a meeting at Laughing Horse Books on, I believe, April 16th or 17th @ 7pm for those interested in learning more.
As Anarchists, we believe that all government is violence for the root of authority, telling other people what to do and then making them do it: is violence. We believe people should stop paying their taxes to support wars and an economic system of isolation and oppression and organize directly in their communities to take responsibility for producing their own goods and food for themselves and for their own self-defense of their lives and right to live in peace and harmony with their brothers and sistsers sharing what they produce instead of charging one another for it and defending their right to do it. (sorry for the run-on sentence).
The fact that all land and the right to occupy space has been consumed into the market and people now have to pay for what should be the birthright of all puts us in position where we are dependent upon having to work for the capitalist class just to survive and make it back to work on time. Well, we say ENOUGH!!! Some of us are beginning to see through the scam and want control back over how they spend their time and labor!! We don't want to be isolated in an economy of #s, we want REAL LIFE and to be able to creatively produce not only our one needs and wants, but produce for our friends, loved ones and larger community also by SHARING!!! If I always have to charge for my services, then where do I get to spend the enjoyment of giving?? I want to give all the time, not just when some BOSS allows me!! They've accumulated all the wealth through a history of war and have now abstracted and fragmented that actual real wealth into money so that now, we have to pay to get back what we produced to begin with!! Well, when is enough enough?? When we choose REAL LIFE and the ability to do what we want when we want to do it and SHARE instead of being objectiified into their economy for their purposes.
I also suggest, "Society of the Spectacle" by Guy Debord because, ultimately, the fact that we are arguing over something so trivial as whether someone has a right to freely, creatively express themselves just expresses the poverty of our oppression when we look at the grand scheme of things, especially when some people are actually suggesting physically assaulting REAL human beings for just burning inanimate objects. It just exposes the facistic nature of the system that continues to animate mass societies thoughts and actions through both mental & direct, physical bondage.
Think for yourself, live for yourself, free yourself and we will meet in REAL LIFE, outside of this spectacle as friends!!
now that's REAL peace,
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 10:32 AM
Ah, if only humans were angels...
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 10:57 AM
sounds like you are, owlbear :) !! When we people realize that the only way we TRULY change things is the way in which we choose to live our lives!?
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 11:50 AM
Besides, when it came down to the REAL violence, assault and aggression, wasn't that (at least started by - and perpetrated the most by ) the cops??
And what does that say about the nature of authority?
America, America.. when will you realize that your obedience to the system is violence in disguise?
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 11:57 AM
Re: "While those acts are obviously inappropriate and immature and have no place in a peace protest, the anti-peace, right-wing posters here demonstrate a collective juvenile attitude that is equally astounding."
So, what you're saying is, those of us who disagree with you, in the act of expressing ourselves on an internet message board, astound you as much as citizens publicly defecating on a burning American flag and chanting death to American troops abroad.
I'm fascinated that anyone would draw that sort of equivalence. Sort of. The left isn't exactly known for its sense of reason and proportion.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 12:00 PM
At first I thought that these displays was counter productive, but I see now that they are serving a very important purpose. They are very good at smoking out the "concern trolls". Those that would "support" what is right but can't because it is "unpatriotic". I must say it is a sad state of affairs in america today if "patriotism" means supporting the immoral and wrong.
Sign me up for the flag-burning club, like yesterday.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 12:11 PM
Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy.
Funny stuff man.
Seriously, it is nice to know people walking around actually believe this crap.
This guy doesn't:
Clinton told King: "People can quarrel with whether we should have more troops in Afghanistan or internationalize Iraq or whatever, but it is incontestable that on the day I left office, there were unaccounted for stocks of biological and chemical weapons."
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 12:19 PM
SN, no I am not making any such claim.
Sadly your ideals call for humans to always behave rationally, to always be honest, and always count the good of all over their own desires. That has never happened in the past and there is no sign of it happening in the future.
And therefore we need Laws and the government necessary to enforce those laws.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 12:24 PM
Ace, those words are from a briefing given to Tony Blair by Britain's Foreign Minister's office...
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 12:29 PM
The dems are doing the same thing to Americans in congress. Pretending to support the troops, but giving $250 million to rich, white liberal millionaire dairy farmers. A Peanut warehouse for $73 million. Make Halliburton look like small potatoes. Your newspaper is not telling the way Nancy Pelosi bought votes to demean the troops. It was a payback to lobbyists and campaign contributors. Heck, why not give $25 million to the spinach farmers who murdered and poisoned AMericans last year. Someone has to fund his illegal alien slaves and his mistresses. I hear he also owns a winery, just like Nancy. The democrats promised not to attach pork to spending bills, THEY LIED.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 12:42 PM
the primary organizer of the international day of protest is a group called international answer. answer is the activist project of the iac, which in turn is the activist arm of the workers world party, a stalinist group which traces its lineage back to the schism formed within the original communist party when some members came to dissaprove of soviet imperialism. the wwp is the faction which approved. the wwp were supporters of the soviet invasion of afghanistan.
Re: Rudeness mars peace message
it is suspected, though not proven, that answer gets a portion of it's funding from the north korean state, but far more disturbing is the fact about the iac and answer's founding signatory, ramsey clark. ramsey clark, often euphamisticly referred to by noting our nation's shame of having him as our nation's atorney general during the lbj administration, is saddam hussein's lawer, or was until his execution.
so the "peace" protest was an astroturf fraud organized by saddam's lawer. i don't expect the maintream media to be quite so blunt, but the fact that the pertainent facts outlined above aren't mentioned in any coverage of any of the "peace" movement's activities is inexcusable. the people are being lied to.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 12:52 PM
james marks,
the editorial decision to not publish photos of the incident for fear how they would reflect on the event and it's participants is not journalistic. rather, it is a decision more fitting of a paid public relations firm, like fenton communications, and indeed, that is exactly how the legacy media is percieved by the general public.
that perception is only reenforced in your publication's editorial position on the incident, which appears to be that burning u.s. soldiers in effigy while chanting for their death is not condemnable in itself, but only in the context that it may make more media savvy progressives look bad.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 01:09 PM
Editorial response:
"the editorial decision to not publish photos of the incident for fear how they would reflect on the event and it's participants is not journalistic."
Mr. Fleming,
The decision to not publish photos that 1) are so graphic as to offend the general sensibilities of our readers (I doubt you'll find any news organization that is willing to publish photos of someone defecating) and 2) are emotionally-loaded while being simultaneously unrepresentative of the general nature of an event is, in fact, "journalistic."
Our responsibility is to provide for our readers a fair and accurate account of the event. The burning of the soldier in effigy, the burning of an American flag and the defecation on that flag by a protester happened. If anyone is in doubt about that, they shouldn't be. I've tried to make links in these comments to the video of some of those acts easier for people to review for themselves. But those acts, as far as our reporters on the scene could tell, were not representative of the behavior of the vast majority of those participating in the march. Therefore, to choose photographs of those particular acts to represent the overall protest march would be decidedly un-journalistic.
James Marks
Webmaster
Pamplin Media Group
Actually, owlbear, many of us are making RADICAL leaps to live within the bounds of our conscience. The truth is, our DEEPEST desire, buried under the heap of mass-produced desire, is to live fully BY our conscience. And once we begin to recognize the difference between the two, and take the time to REALLY ask ourselves and meditate on, "What do I want for my life?" The more of us find the courage to break beyond our fear, leap out of the box and take the risks which at first may seem like sacrifice, but after the first leap and decision is made to live by our TRUE desires, we realize, it wasn't much of a sacrifice at all.. in fact, we find happiness for the first time in living in freedom from a system that while in our obedience to, provides certain COMFORTS but at the price of psychic & physical suffering through repetitive, mind and body numbing labor and ultimately, spiritual death. Living the mass-produced life of modern society is really death in disguise.. The unfulfilled promise.. the rope at the end of the carrot.. the American Dream always remains a dream because it can never be truly realised because it is built on a lie. When we start living for our own dreams and desires.. THIS is freedom and happiness and we wake up in a community of REAL people that want to be with us as much as we want to be with them.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 01:09 PM
whoops, forgot to sign that one above,
-sn
P.S.
owlbear is a cool name!
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 01:13 PM
"And now all Anti-war protesters are condemned as Traitors because a dozen or so punks stage a disgusting display for attention..."
No, they are traitors because they want to see America lose to the terrorists. They are traitors because they give aid and comfort to Americas enemies. They are traitors because they crap on our flag, burn our soldiers in effigy, attack our military recruiters and work for the victory of the terrorists.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 01:18 PM
Rats are happiest in a latrine.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 01:18 PM
Anyone who calls anyone else a traitor for not "living up" to what THEY think others should do is a traitor to free-will. Which, by the way, is the fundamental way in which we express our humanity.
Freedom forever!
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 01:27 PM
"Anyone who calls anyone else a traitor for not "living up" to what THEY think others should do is a traitor to free-will. Which, by the way, is the fundamental way in which we express our humanity."
What a load of garbage. You obviously do not understand the concept of being patriotic to your country - unless, of course, your country is Iran, or Venezuela.
People who work for the defeat of America are traitors to America. That simple. It's fine to disagree with the policies of the President. But to actively work for the terrorists as these people do is something else. It is treason. These people are doing exactly what UBL want them to.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 01:31 PM
The "argument" that the "peace" protestors are simply exercising their "freedom of speech" has most certainly shown to be what it REALLY is...
And, that is to say that it has become standard fare at such "protests" to exhibit the most virulently hateful and blatantly violent acts and call them "peaceful". Those that carry on this "blac block" charade are for the most part cowards. The supposedly "reasonable" card-carrying members of Code Pink, Veterans for War and A.N.S.W.E.R. who march arm in arm with them do absolutely nothing to prevent such actions.
The behavior described in the article is not rude...it goes much farther...square into the realm of crudity.
It's suggested that the "organizers" should denounce and distance themselves from such crude tactics, but they won't. In fact, they can't. They are one and the same and they revere the hooligans who parade in their black masks.
It's interesting that you don't ever hear that those who counter these so-called "protests" act in this fashion.
That's fascinating because our defenders of freedom...the "protestors" freedom...are attacked from every angle and called every name in the book.
All in the name of "peace".
I think I'll go vomit now.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 01:32 PM
Interesting that someone who identifies him/herself with black culture by calling him/herself "j dawg" would be so patriotic to a government that has historically and to this day, oppressed, enslaved and killed by the millions africans in the name of building "our great American democracy", "freedom" or any other neatly packaged advertisement that is it's exact opposite in disguise.
Once Again, Freedom Forever!
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 01:34 PM
Having "the right" to do something does not automatically make it the "right" thing to do.
Have the "right to free speech" does not automatically make burning soldiers in effigy right, or crapping on the flag in public "right". If I had seen it, that person would have gotten the whuppin his daddy should've given him years ago...
There's a difference between having a "right" and being "right".
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 01:36 PM
True patriots hold their government responsible for its actions and unless the word "patriotism" means nothing more to you then obedience to whatever the government does, which is not what, by the way, the founding fathers described in the constitution we should do, then you are not living up to your own standards of patriotism. Unless, that is, your concept of patriotism is not American patriotism, but say, patriotism the brand of countries like Russia or Nazi Germany. Looks like this country might need another American Revolution if the meaning of freedom is to retain any value that can be experienced in people's actual lifes! Revolution for the people, of the people, by the people - now THAT's patriotic!!
P.S. sn wrote a really cool, although long comment above
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Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 01:43 PM
"Interesting that someone who identifies him/herself with black culture by calling him/herself "j dawg" would be so patriotic to a government that has historically and to this day, oppressed, enslaved and killed by the millions africans in the name of building "our great American democracy", "freedom" or any other neatly packaged advertisement that is it's exact opposite in disguise."
Sounds to me like you just hate America. Why do you live here if you hate it so much? Could it be that maybe it's the one place where you can go out and act like these traitors without being shot, or jailed? And just how do you think it is that we have those rights?
It's because men and women fought and died in the name of this country to make it so. And to dishonor them in the way these traitors do makes us normal Americans sick to our stomachs.
Yes, to me, they DO represent the hate-America left - all of them. And to me (and many others) they are traitors.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 01:43 PM
If you physically assault someone for burning an inanimate object, then YOU are the less humane of a person by violating that person's physical space. And, if you are left standing, after you hit the person, and the person believes in self-defense, well, you get what you deserve.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 01:47 PM
"Looks like this country might need another American Revolution if the meaning of freedom is to retain any value that can be experienced in people's actual lifes! Revolution for the people, of the people, by the people - now THAT's patriotic!!"
Hmmm, so now, you're calling for an armed revolt to overturn the government - just because there's a Republican in the white house. And that's your idea of patriotism.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 01:47 PM
as far as "being able to say those things without getting jailed or shot" - does that mean you think people should have that right? Because if you do, then you are contradicting yourself by saying you would assault them with violence. As far as the people who are willing to stand up and defend freedom, well, each person has to be accountable to themselves by asking themselves if that's what they are ACTUALLY doing when they don a uniform. Just because you don a uniform doesn't mean that you are necessarily defending freedom. The interests of the current administration are about as far away from defending freedom as it can get. They are actually increasing the likelihood of further attacks in the future with their attacks on people of other countries and the citizens of their own countries with the assault on civil liberties like 'the Patriot Act' 'Homeland Security' and other bills which spit in the face of the Constitution. When the government spits in the face of what America is SUPPOSED to represent, it is up to TRUE PATRIOTS to spit back.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 01:56 PM
So, you want to overturn the gov't because there's a Republican in the WH, you think it perfectly okay to burn soldiers in effigy, you think it perfectly fine to burn a US flag and crap on it, you probably think it okay to assault recruiters on college campuses, okay to slash the tires of Republican voters, etc, all in the name of what you define as "freedom."
Saw your type during Vietnam. Like I said before, same garbage, same antics, same old, same old. They were traitors then, and they still are.
Gotcha. You need say no more.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 02:00 PM
Second, the photographs depict extreme and intentionally provocative behavior of approximately 15 people and are not, in the opinion of our reporters on the scene, representative of the behavior of the 15,000+ people who participated in the protest march.
To publish photographs of the most extreme behavior of a group of individuals who make up roughly 0.1% of the participants in an event would not, in our opinion, be a fair representation of that event.
-----------------------------------------------
Ohhh... thre were 15 people who were not representative of the members of the protest march?
Guess College Young Republicans were taking a walk amongst the lower orders and got 'frisky', huh.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 02:00 PM
The Constitution guarantees the right to bear arms and, if the government truly violates the people and becomes unbearable, the right to overthrow it. Have you read it?
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 02:01 PM
But you know everyone there supported burning the flag, crapping on it, and burning the soldier in effigy. They all hate America.
Fine, we hate them, too, and wish they would all go back to Cuba, or Venezuela, where they can sing the praises of Che and socialism all day long...
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 02:03 PM
"The Constitution guarantees the right to bear arms and, if the government truly violates the people and becomes unbearable, the right to overthrow it. Have you read it?"
So, you _DO_ advocate armed revolt to overturn the gov't. That makes you a traitor.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 02:04 PM
I an attorney, a Christian and a Jew(by birth). I love this country and treasure its freedoms which my family has fought for over the years. Outlawing flag desecration is absolutely consistent with the constitution and should be implemented. Since the ACLU and allies will not allow us to ban flag desecration, do we now have to tollerate flag defecation?
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 02:07 PM
Kinda makes you think, according to the Constitution, in some instances, Revolution can be the MOST patriotic thing to do!!
Of course, everyone's decision on when that instance is reached is totally subjective.. that is, if they are thinking for themselves.. if they're not, OH MY GOD!! The terrorists have already won.
Look!! There they are!! In office!! Let's not forget the 2000 election WAS a Coup d'etat. Hmmm, what options are left for a true patriot or anyone else concerned with REAL freedom?
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 02:09 PM
Hmmm. So, when Republicans win an election, it's called a coup d'etat. Gotcha.
Keep drinking that Kool Aid. You do know, that the CIA looks for people who actively call to overthrow the gov't.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 02:13 PM
The Republicans did not win the election, if it's possible for you to quit being so idiotic, you should do it, read more and try a bit harder to think for yourself. Otherwise, the purple Kool-Aid looks like it's your choice, after all, the MAJORITY of people chose it at Jonestown because they must follow what their LEADER who represents to them the MAJORITY opinion couldn't possibly be wrong!!
And so you admit that the CIA conducts witch-hunts for people who express views which are suppossed to be Constitutionally guaranteed rights!! And THIS is what you're patriotic to? YOU NEED SAY NO MORE!! You've already exposed the weakness of your ability to put 2 and 2 together several times now!!
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 02:24 PM
actually, the fbi hunts traitors. the prohibition of treason, incidentally, is an important feature of the constitution. the only criminal offence dealt with with specificity in the founding document of our republic.
article three, section three:
"Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court."
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 02:29 PM
"Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court."
Hmmm, let's see. 'levying war' against US - burning the US flag, attacking recruiting stations, attacking our military, burning soldiers in effigy, chanting for them to die (like the barking moonbats did in Portland) - to me, those look like the actions of people who are at war against the US. 'Or in adhering to thier enemies' - let's see - working for the terrorists to win fits this completely, and they (along with most Democrats in the Congress and Senate) are working as hard as they can to see America lose to the terrorists, and they certainly do give them aid and comfort.
This gets revealed every day on the news, and they openly brag about it. Too bad we don't deal with traitors the way we used to.
The left in this country has proven they are the enemy within, just like those who collaborated with the NAzis in WW 2.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 02:37 PM
Portland is like that though.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 02:43 PM
That's too bad, really.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 02:44 PM
Why would you assume I would call for the overthrow of the government just because there is a Republican in the White House? I call for the overthrow of all authority because I'm an Anarchist and believe in REAL freedom, not hiding behind some FLAG which promises to protect me but really is the source of my oppression in disguise. I don't need anyone else to protect my freedom because I'm a MAN. If you actually opened your eyes and read history and just took a honest look at what's going on around you, you would see that ALL governments do way more harm to the cause of freedom, justice and equality then they have ever protected. Real freedom, justice equality and all other noble notions can only be protected by each individual participating in self-governance: responsibility. Electing someone to represent your freedom to you will always be a sham because you are not the one taking responsibility for yourself to protect your own freedom. That's why there is contridictions even within the Constitution - like the contradiction between treason and the right to overthrow the government. Like COINTELPRO, slavery and all other blatant contradictions to stated policy. Because believing that someone else can truly represent YOU and your desires and protect you without participating in your own life is and always will be a LIE.
Go bury yourself in your security-blanket flag. Unfortunately, you will find no solace there.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 02:45 PM
"Why would you assume I would call for the overthrow of the government just because there is a Republican in the White House?"
Because you said so.
"I call for the overthrow of all authority because I'm an Anarchist and believe in REAL freedom, not hiding behind some FLAG which promises to protect me but really is the source of my oppression in disguise."
You are an idiot. If you hate living with any authority at all, you should move to a deserted island and make your own laws.
"I don't need anyone else to protect my freedom because I'm a MAN. "
Uh huh. You can't even use the same name to post with, and we're all s'posed to believe in your masculinity? Please.
You're no different than any other self-hating barking moonbat liberal.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 02:49 PM
Did you know that Ford was one of the biggest collaborators with the Nazis and helped to build Nazi tanks at Ford plants in Nazi Germany. He also published anti-semitic pamphlets. Was he ever tried for treason? Did you know that the Bush family held stock in IG Farbin (I believe that's the spelling) the biggest producer of concentration camps in Nazi Germany including Auschwitz? Were they ever tried for treason?
NO. The likes of Henry Ford and Bush will NEVER be tried for treason because it is THEIR SYSTEM. The system of the rich, by the rich, for the rich. Bush-owned corporate America.
Go watch a re-run of "I Love Lucy". As for the rest of us, we will be keeping our eyes open.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 02:54 PM
This has nothing to do with the current situation.
You understand that? NOTHING!
The left in this country is the real enemy of America, and they prove it every day. Thier treason will only make real Americans angrier and angrier. One day, there will be another civil war in this country, and the leftists will be taught that treason has a price.
So, go get youself some more tinfoil, drink your Kool Aid, play your pretend games all you want.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 03:00 PM
I do not define my manhood by "masculinity" or any other stupid notion of what it means to be a man. I define my manhood by my ability to be truly HUMANE. Go watch another re-run of Rambo or Terminator. Why don't you post YOUR TRUE NAME. Obviously you caught on that all the names posted were by the same person so really you're not different than me in not posting your true identity. Personally, I don't recommend posting your real name with the Patroit Act and all, but of course, it really wouldn't matter even if you did because your opinions are perfectly aligned with the current administrations, anyway. It takes courage to TRULY express yourself and stand up and speak out against what you feel is wrong, ESPECIALLY when it goes against Mass-produced societal opinion. Keep regurgiating the opinion you were taught to and be a good little boy. The truth is, the same opinion I express to you here, I would express to you TO YOUR FACE.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 03:02 PM
And if I ever see anyone crapping on the flag, or burning a soldier in effigy, I would pound that person's face in the dirt as hard and fast as I could.
From: http://www.ktvz.com/story.cfm?nav=oregon&storyID=18920
"Other black-clad, masked protesters carried a black banner that read, "No Gods, no country, no masters," and a circle A anarchy symbol."
I s'spect you were there, probably carrying one of these posters. But it gets better:
"“The people they hate most are the American soldiers (whom they term “mercenaries” and in a different era called “baby-killers”) who dare bring freedom to an oppressed people under our flag.”"
Get that? They hate our soldiers because they bring freedom to oppressed people. I guess you'd prefer they stayed oppressed.
Liberals prove they are the real enemy every day.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 03:07 PM
The real enemy of America is the non-thinking robot autonomons such as yourself and the war criminals in office who should be tried for treason. You right-wing puppets of power make me laugh (especially those earning a working class income). Don't you see you support your own oppression? You better hope a civil war never does happen because with the strings cut loose, you wouldn't know what to do, would probably shoot someone in paniced hysteria and then get killed by someone who would finally hold you responsible for the blood on your hands.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 03:10 PM
Keep drinking your kool-aid.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 03:12 PM
oops! meant to say "You better hope a civil war never does happen"
Anyway I've wasted enough time talking to you.
"Talking to a republican is like talking to a refrigerator. The light goes on, the light goes off, but it never really says or does anything it's not supposed to." - Utah Phillips
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 03:13 PM
Trying to get a liberal to see reality and understand truth is like trying to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
You will be a lost cause until the islamists get ready to saw your stupid head off. Then you'll be singing a different tune.
Liberals - the enemy within.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 03:18 PM
Civil war? No. Revolution? Yes!
Viva!
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 03:24 PM
"An Army recruiting station in Milwaukee was vandalized by "peace" protesters, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reports:
Protesters broke a window and threw smoke bombs, paint and human excrement, police said. There were no injuries reported.
The paper says that "Wisconsin peace activist groups on Tuesday said some protesters might increasingly turn to destruction as their frustrations mount":
Peace Action Wisconsin does not condone violence, said the group's project organizer Julie Enslow, but some anti-war protesters might feel the need to be violent to get their point across.
"We do not use those tactics ourselves, but the movement is very broad, and as this war continues, the anti-war movement is going to take many forms--not all of which everyone feels comfortable with," Enslow said.
Hmm, vicarious vandalism. Detroit's WXYZ-TV reports on a similar incident in the Wolverine State:
Congressman Mike Rogers' home is under police guard after his Lansing office was severely vandalized last night. . . .
Two security cameras were destroyed and the building was spray painted. . . .
The vandals also spread red paint all over the 8th congressional district sign in front of the building, as well as on a sign that says "We Support Our Troops."
They also put a sign on one of the buildings [sic] windows that says Congressman Rogers has "blood on his hands."
Can someone explain to us the logic behind the notion that destroying property is an appropriate response to unhappiness that America is at war?"
Looks like the civil war is well underway.
I guess you liberal moonbats would just have us surrender the US....
Liberals are the enemy within.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 04:00 PM
"And if I ever see anyone crapping on the flag, or burning a soldier in effigy, I would pound that person's face in the dirt as hard and fast as I could."
Sure you would jdawg. You and the rest of the ubermenschen here would quickly smite with righteousness anyone who would besmirch the sacred flag.
LOL, okay, I almost made it through that without laughing. You "Hurrrr, gonna pound me some hippies" types only seem to show up after the fact on message boards, telling one and all how you'd have dished out some two-fisted justice "If only I'd been there/didn't have this old war injury/insert excuse here". Either that or when you do finally muster up the courage to try something and get knocked around or end up looking like the tools you are, you make up stories later about how teh eeevil anarchists wuz armed and you weren't.
Open question for all the I-wanna-beat-me-some-flag-burners crowd: what exactly is the difference between you and the islamists who want to saw our heads off anyway? Is it just fear of the law that keeps you from doing the same thing they do when people criticise their government? Maybe you should consider moving; Portland, or America in the case of our non-Portland-resident posters, doesn't seem as agreeable to you as Saudi Arabia might be. After all, they know how to deal with their "enemies within" in a fashion more to your liking.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 06:33 PM
"Ace, those words are from a briefing given to Tony Blair by Britain's Foreign Minister's office..."
Uh, no they weren't.
Either way, they're taken out of context and you are lying by using them. Given that there are 8 years of statements by the Clinton Admin officials refute them in their entirety.
But it's comical to watch you use them as if they mean anything.
Then you have the temerity to post that it was "proven" that Saddam had nothing to do with al Qaeda.
You are caught in one lie and just move right on to the next...
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 11:29 PM
"I do not define my manhood by "masculinity" or any other stupid notion of what it means to be a man."
Funny stuff.
In other words, you change the meaning of the words to suit your silly feelings on the matter.
I love watching you liberals in action. It's non stop comedy and parody.
(email verified)
Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 11:31 PM
Their platform, their poop. How to tell where one ends and the other begins?
(email verified)
Sun, Mar 25, 2007 at 01:40 AM
the way anarchists work, is that the second you pointed a finger in one of their faces and yelled loudly, they'd have a girl in their crowd fall to the ground cluching her eye and crying. 48 hours later there'd be a press conference. the girl would be in a full-body cast standing behind three national lawers guild attorneys who each would take turns delivering radical stump speeches about dissent and the patriot act and mention in passing that they're bringing suit against the city for not adequately restraining you and the rest of the "hate mob".
"non-violent resistence" is basicly insurance fraud translated into a political context.
(email verified)
Sun, Mar 25, 2007 at 02:25 AM
Why wasn't the man who pulled down his pants in public arrested for indecent exposure? And--since no anti-war group denounced the action of these idiots, it exposes the truth about them. They are hypocrites who call our soldiers baby-killers, but THEY are the baby killers because they support abortion on demand. They are hate-mongers (they hate everything other than themselves, whom they idolize), war-mongers who make war only on their own country, and the lowest things (can't put them in the category of humans) on the planet. And the group I just described are not only the ones doing the action, but those not speaking out against them. Export these jerks to Iraq so THEY can try to fix things over there (we know they wouldn't last one day). The left doesn't get it; because of these disgusting jerks, Republicans will take back the house and senate again, along with the presidency because this turns off even many democrats. GOD BLESS AMERICA, our soldiers, our president, and those who cherish GOD.
(email verified)
Sun, Mar 25, 2007 at 02:56 AM
Yeah, the handful of trouble makers in the crowd of 15,000 are truly representative of the anti-war crowd, not the 14,985 who protested calmly and peacefully.
So much stupidity, so few comets.
(email verified)
Sun, Mar 25, 2007 at 02:56 AM
"Pardon me, do you have any Grey Poupon?"
Nope, but here's a little anarchist with a lot of brown poop on.
(email verified)
Sun, Mar 25, 2007 at 03:32 AM
Freedom of speech is a great thing; too bad those on the right don't believe in freedom.
(email verified)
Sun, Mar 25, 2007 at 05:53 AM
"So much stupidity, so few comets. - Bob"
you see, kija could learn something from bob. wishing for a disaster to come and wipe the eath clean of all who think differently is "eliminationist" rhetoric.
(email verified)
Sun, Mar 25, 2007 at 06:18 AM
"history is instructive in this. there will be genocide and ethnic cleansing, and it will be because progressives, not just these 15 or so, but all 15,000 at the rally and the rest of them throughout the nation worked hard towards that result. "
Just like Vietnam. Like I've said before, we have seen the enemy within. And they are Liberals.
(email verified)
Sun, Mar 25, 2007 at 06:46 AM
Yep, the handful of trouble makers in the crowd of 15,000 ARE truly representative of the anti-war crowd. Just look at your great leaders: Hanoi Jane, Cindy "bi-polar" Sheehan who uses her son as a guise to make money by leading a bunch of time-warp hippies to protest, Hollywood entertainers who think they are politicians, George "socialsim" Soros, etc. Of course, there probably are a handful of peaceful protestors, but they get lost in the crowd of the many who spew hatred towards their countrymen and women trying to protect them (and what kind of head cover do you want you chidren to have to wear when we stop standing up to them?). Just remember: it is the SOLDIERS who are fighting this war and that have fought others that have provided you the freedom to dissent. No one cares if you speak out--it's HOW you do it and WHO you smear that matters.
(email verified)
Sun, Mar 25, 2007 at 08:07 AM
Re: Rudeness mars peace message
"So much stupidity, so few comets. - Bob"
By the way, I still didn't hear you speak out against their actions.....or anyone else in the crowd. That speaks volumns..........stupidity seems to be on your side.
(email verified)
Sun, Mar 25, 2007 at 08:10 AM
Since when have these anti-war protests been in favor of morality? Demoralizing the troops is always a good way to bring peace to the world!Thanks to people like Johnkerry,anybody can be a senator.And anybody can demoralize the troops and depress the whole country with this anacharchistic-socialism protests.Its not really about peace is it?Its about chaos.Thanks democratsocialists for your patrisim.Thanks to all those who voted these 60`s hippies into power and to those mad people who decided not to vote at all!!!
(email verified)
Sun, Mar 25, 2007 at 08:13 AM
I am from NYC and did not witness any of this except to follow a web link. I have to say that the posts on this page are remarkable and well stated. You guys in Oregon are impressive.
Note to "Emma Goldman". If you are so worried about attacks on Jews in and around WWII perhaps you should fast forward to today and rethink your views about the Bush family's supposed past treason. Somehow ascribing relevancy to Bush today hurts Jews present day. We live in the here and now babe. Never again.
One note about Henry Ford - he got on board after Pearl Harbor and the industrial might, his pioneering mass production processes help create, saved the rest of the European Jews, and Democracy in much of the world in the bargain.
(email verified)
Sun, Mar 25, 2007 at 08:13 AM
If you read the full comment it said: I define my manhood by my capacity to be HUMANE. I am biologically a MALE, but just because you have a penis and pump iron doesn't make you a MAN. Standing up for what you think and feel to be right does. At least in my book.
To "J. Fleming": you have absolutely NO idea about what Anarchism means and what Anarchists do. If any so-called Anarchist actually DID do something like this, it wouldn't be because they identified with Anarchism, which, by the way, is just a political ideology, it would be because they are dishonest people. If you REALLY want to know what the Anarchists you so quickly rush to judge ACTUALLY believe in, then read one of the many books published by an actual ANARCHIST. Like Alexander Berkman, Emma Goldman, Peter Kropotkin, etc. Until you educate yourself on Anarchism, you have no right to speak on what Anarchists believe in or what their being an Anarchist would lead them to do.
What you're referring to is actually called OPPROTUNISM and we see many more examples of that being put into practice by the right then the left. However, from an ANARCHIST perspective ALL politicians (as oppossed to people who are political), in other words, those that make CAREERS out of being a politician are OPPORTUNISTS and for that, the Anarchists see right through the whole mass media scam of false choice: Left vs. Right, Democrat vs. Republican, Green Party, whatever, blah, blah, blah.. The truth is that is a system of the rich ruling the poor and the Republicrats are the enemy of all conscious people who believe in REAL freedom. Freedom to occupy space without having to pay for it. Freedom from the economic tyranny of the few - GOVERNMENT. Whether they call themselves Capitalists, Communists, Democrats, Republicans: all governments rest on AUTHORITY which is violence and just expresses the patheticness of the human races ability to not take the responsibility in choosing a lifestyle that would actually prevent the mass atrocities of the modern age like: genocide, war, etc. The only way we'll ever get to peace is by each person, one by one, refusing to participate in meaningless dogmatic conversations of right vs. left and choose to listen to THEMSELVES, their HEART - and choose LIFE over Representative Life, which as long as we continue to gaze at it: equates to our living death. When we refuse to let them stop selling us false choices and realize the true source of our exploitation and stand up for the world we want to live in: then we will find peace. Until then.. the circus continues.
As for the REAL Anarchists, we try to make our life a LIVING example of what we believe in - because we realize that is the only TRUE choice.
No Masters, No Authority, Free Association, Mutual Aid!!
Up with the gift economy, down with slavery!!
A dream means nothing if it's not your own and if it is, and your not doing your best to live by it, then it still means nothing!!
What do you want for your life? As for me, none of the ABOVE. I choose myself, real life, real people who want to work WITH me.. not me working for them or them working for me, but us working together because we both want to. That's the only true community. UNITE for the common liberation of all!! And down with all tyrants dressed as Saviours of the human race!!
(email verified)
Sun, Mar 25, 2007 at 08:26 AM
Note on the present:
while what a company is doing right now is obviously more important than what is has done in the past, all of the present exists because of past effort. The reason why the present sense of actual LIVING life has diminished so greatly is because we are being help captive to ACCUMULATED CAPITAL - which is a historical process we are CURRENTLY trapped in and the historical process that will continue as long as the economy continues to place more value in THINGS then in people. As for the PEOPLE's history, well, that is a RICH history, my friend, and although they still control the overall historical momentum, there are many shining, inspiring examples of those that fight back. And the more of us that do, and choose to break out of their historical paradigm, the more we will write our OWN history.
(email verified)
Sun, Mar 25, 2007 at 08:42 AM
Also, should a person or a company, whatever, NOT be held responsible for their past actions?
So, if someone kills someone and then says, look, I'm not killing anyone anymore, then justice is served?
Their are many Nazi war criminals who have not been brought to justice that are hiding in the U.S. And then, of course, there's the war criminals in office. In EVERY country. The great news is: they are only there because we continue to support them with our taxes and labor. When we withdraw that, and demand they get a REAL job, then the cycle stops.
(email verified)
Sun, Mar 25, 2007 at 08:53 AM
"Rather, it undermines the moral message of peace demonstrators."
Ummmm... I'd say rather than "undermines" exemplifies would be a better word
"It leads people to believe that it’s not possible to be both patriotic and opposed to the war in Iraq."
Well, perhaps that is because it isn't.
I'm not a fan of Bush, and I think Rumsfeld did more harm to the United States and its' interests than any single person since General Masaharu Homma.
That being said, the people we are fighting in Iraq are violetnly and diametrically opposed to everything that America stands for. Logically one can not support what America stands for (i.e. be a patriot) and simultaneously be opposed to fighting people who are philosophically opposed to everything America stands for, and violently attacking our troops and our interests.
But logic has never been the strong suit of the anti-war movement.
(email verified)
Sun, Mar 25, 2007 at 09:48 AM
So, who was it that pooped on the flag, Cindy Sheehan? Or, was it Pelosie?
(email verified)
Sun, Mar 25, 2007 at 10:24 AM
Eliminationist comments on this thread:
It is time to cleanse our nation of this scum.Let's take 'em on! NOW!
"Mikey
I just wish I had been there to beat the effigy burners in the face with my fists.
"matt"
ou "USEFUL IDIOTS" are really pissing off alot of patriotic veterans and active duty troops and believe me, you cowards DO NOT want what they will be puttin' down. I dare any of those fools to try some retarded stunt like that in front of Rolling Thunder.
Come on, MAKE MY DAY!
"joey schmoey"
his time, I fear these nutcases (and most of them are) are going to reach too far, and when they do, someone is going to react.
Can you say "civil war"?
"jdawg"
and that's just a third of the way through. I lost interest in the stupidity and didn't continue reading.
(email verified)
Sun, Mar 25, 2007 at 11:35 AM
ELIMINATIONISTS WILL ELIMINATE THEMSELVES.
That is the nature of elimination. Violence breeds violence. How courageous is it to run over people standing in the street with your "Rolling Thunder" - Joey Schmoey? Don't you realize that it's the INHUMANENESS of the world view you've accepted through the corporate mass media that leads you to feel like you need to drive around in a HUMMER or something to protect yourself from unarmed people on the street who, if you approached ONE ON ONE with your violence - without a gun or any other weapon to hide behind would put you down in a heartbeat? Keep driving those "Rolling Thunders" though, I heard they're great for the environment on emissions and support our war economy since what are troops are fighting for is OIL, might as well waste as much of it as you can, right? (geez, I hope you're actually smart enough to sense my sarcasm in that last sentence.)
People need to wake up and get ahold of documentaries like "Small Change" that exposes the Bush administration's complicity in 9/11. The sad thing is, since people don't take the time to investigate into opinions and media outside the corporate cable TV version, otherwise sensible people have been petrified, TERRORISED into thinking they need to react with and support such violence.
Plain and simple: you believe what the government/corporate media tells you about 9/11, they scare you out of your wits, then you rally behind their violence, their war for oil/big business profits. Since
you have bought the lie, the TRUTH terrifies you. But if you would stop believing the lie that you need to FEAR everyone who doesn't believe in the war as an actual TERRORIST and search for the TRUTH, then you would stop reacting with such immature, petrified knee-jerk, programmed violence.
(email verified)
Sun, Mar 25, 2007 at 12:17 PM
The reason that eliminationists will eliminate themselves is because people will not stand for their aggressive, violent attacks. If you think that Americans will sit back and let their fellow Americans be assaulted, then you will unfortunately have a rude awakening. Fear is the mother of violence. If you unplug your TV, read a book by an independent publisher such as AK Press and actually participate in your community more, you may begin to deprogram yourself from this fear that causes you to AGGRESS with violence.
(email verified)
Sun, Mar 25, 2007 at 12:24 PM
The only justifiable form of violence is self-defense. And self-defense is something that happens in the moment. Self-defense is not AGGRESSING with violence against people based on what you fear they MIGHT do - it is defending yourself against an aggressive attack. AGGRESSION means YOU ATTACK FIRST. What you are attacking is DISSENT, which is an essential part of any sane society who respects the right of people to express differing opinions. What you seek to ELIMINATE is dissent which make you anti-American. Wake up and COMMUNICATE with those you fear and try to UNDERSTAND them before you aggress with violence. Otherwise, you will just go down in history as a coward.
(email verified)
Sun, Mar 25, 2007 at 12:36 PM
Bush is killing Americans for oil profits. Oil is a depleting natural resource. We've already hit peak oil production which is why even major car companies are coming out with cars that FINALLY run on alternative oil sources. (see the documentary: "The End of Suburbia: Oil Depletion..)
Sane, humane Americans and ALL people will have to make a choice. Do we continue to send our fellow human beings to die for an oil supply that's rapidly running out? Or do we learn about, invest in and create ALTERNATIVE forms of energy to supply our wants and needs? The question is a moral one. But if you stop to think about it, it even goes beyond that, because most Americans depend on oil to get access to their food. Most Americans don't grow their own food, so they're dependent on oil to ship the food in to them. So now, the question becomes one of survival. We can either get back to a more sane, humane, less materialistic way of life and economy and figure out how we are going to survive and produce our own food and needs not being so dependent on others - before it means mass casualties due to lack of preparation - or we are facing mass famine, more war and possible extinction. These right-wing, priveleged, HUMMER-driving, mass media-brainwashed types who expect everything to be done for them and just go about doing their job everyday (if you can call it that) and expect a paycheck and the goods that they provide for are in for a BIG surprise. They're already acting out of complete fear and hysteria with violence. If we don't wake up and make the right lifestyle choices and try to wake them up also, they will be the ones running over everyone else trying to get access to their gas.
We can either stay trapped in the devisive left/right paradigm totally isolated from eachother or see that it's going to take much more than that to survive in the future. The longer we wait to act, the less there will be to save. The choice is yours.
(email verified)
Sun, Mar 25, 2007 at 12:54 PM
Flags are the new toilet paper of the future!! Recycle, reuse!! Respect life, not symbols!! Pooping is fun!! Fun for the whole family!! Do you eat? Gotta poop!! Why not recycle that old flag instead of wasting more paper? God knows the powers that be, with few exceptions, have shitted on what it was supposed to stand for years ago so we really can't say it stands for anything worth saving anymore!! Let's call our new flag "sustainable, clean, fresh air for all"! Now that's something to rally behind!! This could be more fun than the Boston Tea Party!! Cheers!!
(email verified)
Sun, Mar 25, 2007 at 01:18 PM
With every post, and every utterance, liberals and anarchists prove beyond a doubt they are allied with the terrorists and, as such, are traitors to America. They are the enemy within, and they prove it with thier own words and actions. It will only be a matter of time before the vast majority of Americans (who are patriotic and loyal) become so sick of this vile bunch of losers they rise up and take matters into thier own hands.
With any "right" comes responsibility.
(email verified)
Sun, Mar 25, 2007 at 02:33 PM
I'm obviously on the minority side among those who've added commentary here--awful lot more rightward thinkin' people. An AWEFUL lot.--but I just have to chime in.
It's obvious to me that these kids in bad ninja costumes have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the peace movement or any political party. They are--or think they are--anarchists. They were chanting about burning people on bonfires (soldiers & fascists). They were chanting about replacing ballots with guns. Anyone who truly believes that these are the positions of the peace movement or of any major or minor US political party on the left (or right, for that matter) has got to be more than a little daft.
I don't know all the facts of these stories. The video I saw (the soldier & flag burning) shows a circle of black bloc boneheads, and a few other people watching. I do not see anyone I can identify as being from the peace movement. (It sounds like there was an antiwar speech going on somewhere in the background, but I could not tell how far away or what the sightline from there to where the boneheads were was like.) In short, I wonder whether anyone from the peace rally, let alone anyone in charge, even knew this was going on. Unless there is reporting that I have not seen or read, there is no indication that anyone was there to either stop them or even just cry out in opposition. (Anyone who was there & did witness these acts and stayed silent should be ashamed. While I get the whole media detachment thing, I would even include the reporter & photographers who obviously were there in that statement.)
Finally, I hope this does not become any more of a nasty political dirty diaper than it already has. Obviously every elected official who represents Portland probably ought to address it. But I neither need to hear mea culpas from the left or calls of outrage from the right. We're already divided enough. Using acts of vandalism--even acts as outragious as these--for political gain, rather than trying to make it so that such things do not happen, would be sad. Americans need to tone down the partisanship & try to pull together a little.
(email verified)
Sun, Mar 25, 2007 at 04:46 PM
Bush evil
Oil evil
Flag evil
Fire good
Poop good
Hate good
Good for you Portland!
(email verified)
Mon, Mar 26, 2007 at 12:20 AM
"It will only be a matter of time before the vast majority of Americans (who are patriotic and loyal) become so sick of this vile bunch of losers they rise up and take matters into thier own hands."
- jdawg
In a poll taken in March of this year, 69% of the American public said they disaprove of the way Bush is handling the war in Iraq. 69% would be the "vast majority" of Americans and it appears, by this march, that they are indeed rising up and beginning to take matters into their own hands.
(email verified)
Mon, Mar 26, 2007 at 01:16 AM
They aren't ANTI-war; they're FOR the enemy.
(email verified)
Mon, Mar 26, 2007 at 02:19 AM
To those few who claim counterprotesters were the 'bad guys' at the January protest and others...
I was at those protests... I have pictures as well as video. There was violence, it didn't come from counters, unless I missed something.
Too all I ask a question: What do you think of a person that defecates on the flag of their country?
What serious excuse can anyone have for that?
Just like I missed the commentary re: effigy burning of our troops (not jihadists), with chants of 'Bye, Bye, GI, in Iraq you're gonna die'. Yep, free speech.
When they get Shariah Law... will they be able to use their free speech? When Rangel brings draft legislation up shortly (for the fourth time), will they have time to do this? When the military refuses to re-enlist after they're brought back in defeat (as requested), guess who's going?
I've missed comments from the anti-war groups that held this particular protest, what were their comments?
(email verified)
Mon, Mar 26, 2007 at 03:08 AM
J Dawg:
The real "liberal enemy within" is basically YOU AFRAID OF YOURSELF, YOU AFRAID OF YOUR OWN INNER-VOICE OF CONSCIENCE. You are so afraid of everything the mass media tells you to be afraid of that you cling to your flag and TV like a security-blanket and continue going through the motions that they want you to.
I am a patriot to my inner-voice of conscience which is what is necessary to have any sort of participatory democracy, community or anything else with cooperative connotations. To the troops that feel that they are achieving something good by dropping bombs on and shooting people, well, at the end of THEIR life, if they survive the war, they will be answerable to their OWN conscience. Are they REALLY thinking, when they are engaged in battle (especially the kind when they are in the sky, thousands of miles away fromt the people that they are actually killing)? Are they really close enough to the target to determine whether or not they think the target is an actual THREAT? Or is it more likely that they are just following the orders of someone else that is broadcasted into their headsets?
The problem with too many people is that they don't allow themselves the time and space to determine for THEMSELVES who the real enemy is. They have been brainwashed by public, government-funded education: school into a white-washed version of history and a church-washed version of what GOD is. Even the quakers believe GOD is within. You know, that is the main thing that Jesus was trying to teach, that you don't need a church or any other authority to experience GOD because GOD is within. He also said, "Render unto Caesar what is Caesars and render unto GOD what is his."
By this I think he was trying to call people's attention to the fact of who's faces are on the money. It is the medium of the government and he was basically saying, give it back to them, let them have it, let them keep it, we can not place our value in or decide what do with our lives based on money. We must render unto God what is his, meaning our lives, if God is within, must belong to us, and how do you hear the voice of God? By turning off your TV, listening to your own voice of conscience and searching for your own answers to the truth.
My own search has lead me to my stance of where I stand today. But I am still OPEN, still growing, still learning - BUT - I will continue to excercise my INALIENABLE right to think for myself.
(email verified)
Mon, Mar 26, 2007 at 06:00 AM
Why is it, that for years, in public school, you were MADE to rise and pledge allegiance to the flag? If you were MADE to do it, you never had a choice. It was just programming, not freedom of choice. It is particularly appauling to force kids into believing things at such YOUNG ages when they ARE so impressionable. From the start, we are told that our God is outside of us and that our freedom depends on powers that are outside of us. We are not taught to think for ourselves, we are taught to submit.
Well, thank God, despite the fact of how white-washed history class in middle and high school was, they still bothered to expose such shams to freedom as the genocide of the native americans and the slavery of africans, despite how watered-down and justified the presentation of those atrocities were. This is what helped me to start seeing through the sham. There is actually a book written by a college history professor called, "Lies My Teacher Told Me" where he dispells the myths and, in some cases, outright lies, that are presented to us at a high school level. He says that high-school level history actually makes kids DUMBER and they have to re-learn what was mistaught if they are fortunate enough to make it to college.
There are some beautiful qualities, aspirations and expressions of what freedom should mean that were written into the Constitution and some that still make perfect sense to this day. But, overall, the dream of freedom is an evolutionary process and if people are engaged in determing what freedom means to them and actually working for it, then the dream becomes a sham and the result is tyranny. Dig deeper into history, current events, etc. and you will discover that it is still, primarily, a system of the rich, by the rich, for the rich and it is up to REAL working class and poor people to rise up and make sure that they get what freedom means to them, too.
(email verified)
Mon, Mar 26, 2007 at 06:14 AM
oops! correction: on the one above what I meant to say was that "and if people AREN'T engaged in determing what and working for what freedom means to them, then the dream becomes a sham" sorry!
(email verified)
Mon, Mar 26, 2007 at 06:18 AM
Basically, while I would not choose to burn a representation of a person, I agree with burning what, for many, the image of a man in military uniform has come to represent. To me, it represents the brainwashing of good people into doing bad deeds which begines in our youth and we're just simply tired of the brainwash. That's why I've been taking the time to create and engage in this dialogue. Because when there is no room for REAL dialogue, people end up doing rash things in their frustration with being disenfranchised from feeling like they have a choice, a VOICE. Thank Fox News, CNN and all the other corporate media networks for so narrowly framing what is important and debatable news. The major oil companies are having meeting now about what to do now that we've hit peak oil production and it's all down hill from here. How often have you heard about on the tube? Thank God for indymedia, AK Press and all the other people who continue to engage in creating their OWN media, doing their OWN research and having their OWN voice.
(email verified)
Mon, Mar 26, 2007 at 06:29 AM
By the way, I've lost a couple uncles in the Vietnam war, my mom retired from the military and I still have living relatives that have served in the military, also. War is very personal to me and has hit very close to home. But will I close my eyes to the truth just because it will make me feel like the loss of my relatives wasn't in vain? No, the truth can be hard to bear, but the lie is even harder to swallow to one who has resigned to thinking for themselves. I feel I have a pretty good grasp on the nature of government and have only regret to express that they were made to feel that they would be traitors if they didn't fight in the war and that the only way they could experience the love and respect of their fellow man was to sacrifice themselves to the government. The government, at best, is a band-aid for a dysfunctional society. But unless people make the effort to correct the dysfunction through taking responsibility in trying to be as self-sufficient and sharing as possible, which is true self-governance, then the power we give to others grows out of our control and then they sell us the lie of fear(though mass media, etc.) that we need to continue to support them to survive, when in actuality they only exist by the taxed support of the working class and become the source of the oppression of irresponsible people. When we truly come together and unite, they will have no reason left to exist, therefore they must keep us divided. Same old stuff since the dawn of time. When will we wake up?
(email verified)
Mon, Mar 26, 2007 at 06:47 AM
looks like although Portland Tribune has been posting my messages, looks like they also deleted one. Censorship. Hmmm? sounds pretty American to me! The SUBSTANCE of that particular message was communicating that Ford was a Nazi-sympathizer, published anti-semitic pamphlets and continued to operate his plants in Nazi Germany producing many tanks for the Nazis. Also, that the Bush family held stock in IG Farbin which was the biggest producer of concentration camps in Nazi Germany including Auschwitz. The proof that this comment was posted can be verified by looking above at a person who responded to that comment "Keith from NYC". If you'll notice, he references the message that was written by Emma Goldman. That was the message I wrote referencing this stuff which was deleted.
Obviously, now that I've taken the time to re-post the comment, it will probably be deleted again. Just goes to show that unless the workers own their own means of production, they cannot TRULY rely on media they don't own to represent them. At least Karl Marx was right about SOMETHING.
Land & Liberty!!
(email verified)
Mon, Mar 26, 2007 at 07:48 AM
Those who support the terrorists over our soldiers while calling themselves Americans are traitors.
Those who place thier political fortunes on America’s defeat in the GWOT (including Iraq) are traitors.
Those who work tirelessly to see America lose this war are traitors.
Traitors need to be dealt with.
Most liberals are showing themselves to be the enemy within as they seek to see the terrorists win this war, and they are working to see America lose, just as they did during Vietnam.
(email verified)
Mon, Mar 26, 2007 at 10:56 AM
From http://www.wweek.com/editorial/3319/8693/
This shows just how "tolerant" liberals are(n't):
"Carrying a Day-Glo orange sign that said, "Osama loves PDX liberals" and "Real Americans don't cut and run," I posed as a war supporter who wandered into a sea of war opponents at the rally March 18 in the South Park Blocks.
(I wore a freshly ironed blue shirt and tie. The Oregonian, which noted my presence as a counter-protester in its next-day story about the rally, correctly quoted the sign but called the shirt color white.)
Why do it? Because in a town that claims to believe in free speech, WW wanted to see what happens to those who don't parrot the popular line.
What followed was an hour and a half of ridicule, threats and condescension—peppered by a few high-fives from antiwar marchers for "having balls."
Once in the crowd, I easily attracted controversy, constantly approached by people either bemused or irate. No one touched me, and I never argued or shouted back.
But the limits of some Portlanders' tolerance quickly became apparent from protesters' comments:
"I think you should get the hell out of here before you get killed."
"Why are you even here? Just leave."
"Look, kids, that's the guy who likes the war. He's bad."
"Nice shirt. Nice tie. Fascist."
"You look just like a (*******) Republican. The only thing missing is your head up Bush's (***)."
(email verified)
Mon, Mar 26, 2007 at 11:03 AM
See how "nice" and "tolerant" liberals are?
They are telling anyone who doesn't tow thier party line they'll kill anyone who disagrees with them.
Just like the jihadis.
Just like the communists.
They're all for free speech - as long as they agree with what's being said.
They are, indeed, the enemy within.
(email verified)
Mon, Mar 26, 2007 at 11:05 AM
You can say whatever you want J Dawg, I won't stop you. But apparently, from your comments you've made above, you would be willing not just to "call someone out" for expressing an opinion you don't like or don't understand, you would PHYSICALLY assault someone for expressing an opinion you don't like or don't understand. I agree with you on the "calling out" part, it's just the violence I disagree with.
By the way, proof that both capitalists and communist media censor is above. Look 3 or 4 messages up to see the comment they deleted from Emma Goldman. I guess if you connect to many dots in the Matrix, the whole system shuts down.
(email verified)
Mon, Mar 26, 2007 at 01:11 PM
How much can you trust a paper for your information on what's happening in the world when they delete comments? Makes you question how much you can trust ANYTHING they tell you.
As said before, cheers to the people who continue to produce their OWN media, do their OWN research (not just through the TV) and draw their OWN conclusions.
The reason so many people fear Anarchists is because the mainstream media allows them so little space to express their views. Most people don't even know that Anarchism is actually a political ideology that has been written about for over 150 years, which, among other things, critiques the nature of ANY power to corrupt. The essence of what REAL communist and anarchist theory communicates, is the essentiality of evolutionizing the concept of what it means to be political. They proclaim that it is not enough to say "I'm a Democrat" or "I'm a Republican" and then after you vote, your responsibility to your community stops there. They proclaim that the WORK that you actually choose to do in your life is a political act IN ITSELF. Everyone must ask themselves if they feel that what they do with their time and produce is actually a useful service to society and increases the freedom of all, or are they just fitting into whatever position is available for them? Just because you can make money doing something and it is deemed "legal" doesn't mean it's the most moral thing you could be choosing to do with your time. Most people are just "doing what they have to" to get by because of the OBSCENE concentration of wealth that Capitalism allows for just makes us all cogs in a machine. Do you really feel that it's just that such a large amount of the population depends on such a small minority of farmers to get their food? Obviously, this arrangement has degraded the overall quality of the mass food supply and is becoming an environmentally unsustainable arrangement. Beyond that, the less you take responsibility for producing your own wants and needs by growing your own food, etc. The harder the few who actually do REAL work have to work to support you.
Never forget that the communist movement in Russia started as a WORKING CLASS STRUGGLE for workers to have control over how their own produce was distributed and have more control, in general, over how they spent their time. That is a POLITICAL act and process to empower the working class, the majority. The movement was destroyed by the bureaucratic takeover of the working classes' movement by Lenin, Trotsky, etc. who reimplemented a TOP DOWN model of how the goods were distributed turning what was supposed to be communism into State Capitalism in disguise. Or Bureaucratic Capitalism - whatever you want to call it - the government dictating how people spend their time and labor. So, true communism was never realized because of AUTHORITY. But true communism: workers owning their own land, means of production and distribution is a radical step forward in the democratic process of empowering the masses to not only choose who represents them, but to choose how the goods they produce are distributed in society. Economics IS the true basis of politics. Once you give people the right to choose how they want to distribute the goods they produce, this leads to a gradual decline in the necessity for bureaucracy and ultimately is a process of eliminating the need for having to rely on Authority for order in society.
Just as democracy is an evolution over monarchies and theocracies, TRUE communism is an evolution from representative democracy to participatory democracy which ultimately reaches the anarchist ideal of no authority. When EVERYBODY rules over how they control their labor, then this means that nobody rules anymore. Or, I should say, when everyone is empowered, then it for the most part, eliminates the need for people to exercise power OVER others. Power corrupts, which is why this country has become the rule of corporations, for the most part. The concentration of so much wealth in the hands of the few allows them to run the government however they want. Capitalism leads to centralization of power. Read "Democracy for the Few" by Michael Parenti to understand more about the process. He graduated from Yale with a degree in political science and shows, through pointing out specific historical examples and facts, how this so-called democracy has become the "best democracy that money can buy" and if you trace what the politicians in office do outside of the time they are occupying state positions, they are the CEOs of major corporations and they basically take on governmental positions to create policy that is favorable to their interests and increasing their wealth.
In 2007, with the depletion of oil and the destruction of the natural environment, the true political question has become now more so than ever, what do you do with your time on this earth and your labor?
(email verified)
Mon, Mar 26, 2007 at 01:51 PM
Y'know, I'm convinced that Portland and San Fransisco should secede from the Union, start thier own country, adopt all the communist/socialist/sharia/environmental rule they want, and call themselves poopistan. It would be perfect, since everyone in those two towns hate America so much.
(email verified)
Mon, Mar 26, 2007 at 02:09 PM
sn, reading some of your drivel has caused my IQ to drop 10 points and my eyes have started bleeding.
When you have something intelligent and coherent to say, let me know and I'll think about reading it...
maybe.
(email verified)
Mon, Mar 26, 2007 at 02:25 PM
A fallen soldier returned to his home town in Texas, where he was received with honor. This is what was said of him, and I agree 100%:
"It’s a shame that we have to lose REAL Americans like this in order to defend the rights of pond scum protestors who “burned him” in Seattle and chanted “Bye bye G.I., in Iraq you’re gonna die”. Your freedom of speech was paid for by men and women like Emerson, ungrateful hippies."
Another wrote this:
"I am sick and f**king tired of this bs pc statement that has infiltrated the “American way.” We have a freedom “OF” speech not “TO” speak. Neither is their a freedom to be heard! I know alot of these lefty anarchists do this for effect but they should be rounded up and thrown into a good Muslim state and let themselves be “heard” there. You all know it. They should be silenced. I love the military. I appreciate like many here what they do for us and I am encouaged by them daily at thier committment, courage and professionalism in doing what they do as well as how they care for their own families. They ARE Tops! "
Again, I agree 100%.
Nothing you liberals and anarchists say or write will change how I and most Americans feel. Your "freedom" to crap on the flag was bought and paid for by men and women far better than the whole stinking bunch of you. Combined.
(email verified)
Mon, Mar 26, 2007 at 02:49 PM
There's a picture of one of your locals showing his love for our country by defecating on the flag.
It can be seen here:
http://www.victoriataft.com/2007/03/somebody-got-it-on-tape-war-protesters.html
What is really sickening (besides the cheering/laughing onlookers) is the fact that some brought thier children to witness (and perhaps learn) this vile act. Raising the next generation of moonbats, are ya?
One poster there wrote, "Upon review of the vile antics of the Portland demonstrators I was prompted to repost: these people are filthy scum-bags. Whatever political slant and motivations, I must question that sanity of people who'd: bring children to such an event; photograph the filthy behavior; revel in abhorance. Disease is among us and it's called liberalism."
I agree. There is no way any rational, sane individual can justify this. But the lib/anarchists/moonbats seem to. Vile, completely vile.
(email verified)
Mon, Mar 26, 2007 at 03:34 PM
I find it funny that the people that claim to stand for freedom are the ones that are most wiling to take it away.
Hypocrites. All of ya.
(email verified)
Mon, Mar 26, 2007 at 04:26 PM
If it happened as reported and wasn't some dirty trick (stranger things have happened though I'll agree it's not likely) what can I say? To paraphrase Jesus, 'the scumbags we always have with us.'
I used to drive cab, night shift, off and on for years. The things I saw Americans do...
(email verified)
Mon, Mar 26, 2007 at 05:36 PM
Now when I hear the phrase "they hate us for our freedoms", I need to ask who? Osama or American right wingers.
The First Amendment does not come with a book of free speech etiquette. But apparently right wingers know of such a book and the rules one must follow. And 15,000 had the lack of social graces to break every rule in the book. But when Anne Coulter calls for the death of fellow Americans while being wathced by hundreds of thousands of people, no harm, no foul. Whoopsie...
But this editorial is old hat, and part of the right wing bag of tricks. Early to the run up to the war, Foxnews had a program, I kid you not, on if the liberals, leftists, progressives, you know the whole litany of right wing bogeymen were respectful when they disagreed. These kind of remarks are simply a method to frame, control, and marginalize dissent.
(email verified)
Mon, Mar 26, 2007 at 11:39 PM
TO MY RIGHT WING (FRIEND?) J DAWG:
Glad to hear that you MIGHT be will to read further comments by me. If it is true that what I've just expressed is nothing more than 'drivel', then why don't you go ahead and refute it, then, for the nonsense that you believe it is?
You're responses to the theoretical and institutional analysis that I have offered you are what is most commonly referred to as "ad hominem". The definition of ad hominem, according to the Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary is: 1) appealing to one's feelings or prejudices rather than intellect 2) (a comment) marked by an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made.
Allow me to suggest that perhaps if you cannot find the words to actually refute my analysis, (which you refer to as 'drivel' in typical ad hominem fashion), then maybe it is because I am speaking about concepts and words you are unfamiliar with.
Contrary to what both the Capitalist Democrat and Republican politicians would have you believe if you listen to them on your
TV, Communism does have an actual definition and meaning beyond just a word that you use when you refer to someone as a traitor ad hominem. The word itself refers to an actual political ideology as well as an economic theory and analysis; an ideology, theory and analysis being a body of words consisting of MANY ideas.
A great place (and the best place) to START learning about the broad definition of what a word might mean is a common, good old American dictionary. There you will find some of the broadest and most general meanings to all sorts of thought-provoking words and concepts - such as communism, capitalism, democracy, republic, monarchy, theocracy, representation, participation, anarchy, etc, etc. You will also notice that some words have more than ONE meaning, depending on what they're referring to and sometimes, depending on WHO'S using them. Such as anarchy, for example.
I have found that the best way to conduct research is to first, never go past a word that you don't understand. If you don't understand the meaning of it, simply look it up! Or, worst case scenario, if you don't have access to a dictionary on hand at that particular moment, or are in the heat of a debate or something, ASK the person what they meant by the word you don't understand. It's OK to not know, we're only human.
After I have conducted my research into the word I do not understand by referencing a dictionary, especially if it's a big word or concept or even, GULPS, an ideology, then I will search for a book by someone who refers to themselves according TO that ideology to see what THEY have to say for themselves.
But remember: ANY ideology has its inherent limits because it is someone else's ideas, and if we start to adhere too stringently to an ideology, that is what is referred to as being DOGMATIC. But first, you have to explore them, and then decide for yourself what parts you agree with and what parts you don't. And that is the most ESSENTIAL part of being a responsible, caring human being - always THINKING for yourself.
Sincerely,
(email verified)
Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 03:34 AM
Interesting that when you are about to click on this article, no it presents it as "Rudeness mars peace message" opinions: none!
Yet when you actually click on the article, there are 258 reader comments. Could this be because I called them out on deleting one of my most FACTUALLY based comments. (see above). All people interested in true democracy and freedom of speech need to STAND UP and CALL OUT Portland Tribune on these blatant censorship practices. Voice your protest! Raise awareness on what they are doing! They are participating in the standard media fare of narrowing the debate and marginalising what they feel to be "unpopular" opinion!
Portland Tribune: change your practices or you will lose readership for lack of unbiased credibility!
(email verified)
Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 03:44 AM
Lets' just see what the First actually says, shall we?
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
Congress... You know what? I'm not a Congressman. I see absolutely nothing in the First Amendment that says you aren't liable for the consequences of your actions if, say, a retired veteran - or any other private citizen - happens to take offence.
(email verified)
Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 03:45 AM
this goes beyond censorship of opinion though, because what they deleted has been documented as FACT. If they felt they disagreed with what I proclaimed to be fact, they could've just attached a editorial comment like they do to other messages they disagree with stating that these "facts" could not be established by the editor. But no, instead, they just deleted the message!
STAND UP!
(email verified)
Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 03:48 AM
I lost interest in "sn's" message before I could finish it.
Can somebody refresh my memory. Did the left pillory Kennedy for invading Vietnam and Cuba? How many flag poopers followed Truman's invasion of Korea? What about Clinton's attack of Kosovo? Any defecation after that?
What would have happened if that gutless charlatan Al Gore had bought a few more votes and become Commander in Chief? Would he have responded to the SECOND bombing of the WTC by attacking something other than empty tents and aspirin factories? Would their have been a peep from the left?
(email verified)
Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 04:30 AM
CMAC 2012:
IT DID HAPPEN.
However, just out of curiosity, what exact quote were you paraphrasing when you said, "the scumbags we always have with us". I've read the Bible and funny thing is, I don't remember Jesus saying anything like that. Could be wrong, though.
Jesus was persecuted by the Church (the Pharisees) and the Roman State for proclaiming that you don't need any AUTHORITY, be it government or a church to experience GOD. He proclaimed that, "God is within!".. That was the basic substance of his message.
Those that persecute the anarchists of today are those that persecuted Jesus yesterday and watered down his message after the gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John), which are watered down also, to conform to Church & State standards in order to maintain their power.
It is the behaviour of irresponsible politicians and dogmatic religious types that will force truly humane people to "drive the money changers out of the temple". Just as Jesus did.
(email verified)
Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 04:40 AM
And, no, I don't label myself as a "Christian". But GOD is within.
(email verified)
Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 04:43 AM
Sorry, these aren't Americans...they may be citizens, but they are NOT AMERICANS!
And I am not buying it for a second that "NORMAL" libs were disgusted by this. In fact, on the video, not one person (coward) was saying anything to denounce this action. Pathetic and one reason I can't stand liberals in general.
(email verified)
Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 06:50 AM
GOD is WITHIN.. EVERYONE. I'll take substance over style any day. I don't care what you call yourself, I want to know who you are.
Jesus was persecuted by the Church (the Pharisees) and the Roman State for proclaiming that "GOD is WITHIN..EVERYONE." and that you don't need any AUTHORITY, be it government or church to experience GOD. That was the basic substance of his message.
Those that persecute/crucify (physically assault with violence) the anarchists of today who proclaim the same message that: "GOD IS WITHIN..EVERYONE!" AND YOU DON'T NEED ANY AUTHORITY, WHETHER CHURCH OR STATE TO EXPERIENCE GOD" are the same that crucified Jesus yesterday. Those that persecute/crucify (physically assault with violence) ANYONE for what they believe in, or for attempting to express their beliefs are those that crucified Jesus yesterday.
The Church & State watered down Jesus' message after the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke & John), which are watered down also, through the years, King James, etc. because the substance of his message: "God is within everyone and you don't need authority to experience God" was REVOLUTIONARY, so they needed to water it down to conform to State standards in order to maintain their power.
It is the behaviour of irresponsible politicians and pseudo-religious dogmatic types that will force truly humane people to "drive the money changers out of the temple". Just as Jesus did.
Politicians and Bureaucrats take notice: The people are beginning to see through the "divide & conquer" scam of the Republicans vs. the Democrats, the Left vs. the Right, and are beginning to see the Republicrats for what they are: Authority figures who are not representing the interests of the majority. Take warning: either start to adjust your policy to the people's interests or your privilege of maintaining your power will be threatened by the INALIENABLE RIGHT of the people to think for themselves and create the world they choose to live in and the government they choose to be under (if any).
(email verified)
Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 06:53 AM
I have to say I'm pretty disgusted that most of the people here are more concerned with the flag defecation/burning than with the soldier. Don't any of you know anyone in the military? Don't you see that's what they want to do with our men and women in uniform? How is that not more repulsive than a flag burning? I can't even imagine how demoralized my husband will be when he finds out about that. He's serving in Iraq right now, and knowing that there are people here in his own country who wish him as much harm as the people he is currently fighting is going to be an awful moment. My first instinct is to hope that the burning is illegal. But I'd rather they be free to burn whatever they want to so that we can see where their hearts truly lie.
(email verified)
Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 07:00 AM
I prefer to describe myself as having many anarchist beliefs but to not label myself as an "anarchist". I am a human being and am concerned with the state of humanity. However, in my research, anarchism is the most diverse and inclusive political ideology I have ever come across. It recognizes the inalienable right of every human being to think and work for themselves. There are a wide range of anarchist theories and ideologies, and overall, is the most pacifistic (for those concerned with achieving REAL peace). See akpress and read something by Emma Goldman, Alexander Berkman or Peter Kropotkin to understand its' basic principles.
Ultimately, ideology is just a grab bag of ideas and it's up to ALL people, including those that call themselves Anarchists, to thoroughly research the ideologies they purport to subscribe to, decide what makes sense, what's humane and what's not, and throw the rest away, ending up at the end of the day, as not a thisist or a thatist but a free-thinking, open-minded, engaged, active person working to create a truly peaceful society and being as humane as humanly possible in the process, every step of the way.
The body is the temple. Money-changers out of the temple! Base your decisions on what you do with your time on this earth and your labor not on money, but what you feel to be the most moral way to live your life.
(email verified)
Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 07:11 AM
sn, or whatever moniker you choose (as you seem to love spamming this place with a jillion different "names")
1. Please try to stay on topic. The topic is the despicable acts of these loonbats in Portland.
2. Please try to post something even halfway intelligent and coherent.
3. Please try to post something worth reading.
Someone, much smarter than me, once said that brevity is the soul of wit.
(email verified)
Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 11:10 AM
bush wasn't available
(email verified)
Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 12:08 PM
Brevity can also be the lack of substance or anything to say.
Seems like you still don't understand what ad hominem means as everything you said in your last comment was just an attack on my character, not my ideas.
To those who identify with radical, real politics such as anarchism that address the real issues at stake for humanity, it's no wonder why we have A LOT to say when we actually get a chance to speak since we are consistently marginalized and disenfranchised from the debate of the corporate-owned mainstream.
In reference to your #1) request to STAY ON TOPIC, that IS what I've been doing, whether you fail to see how all these topics relate or not. When you express your request to "Stay on topic", all you are doing is expressing your desire to control the margins of the debate which is EXACTLY what we are protesting against.
sickened,
(email verified)
Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 02:21 PM
"Seems like you still don't understand what ad hominem means as everything you said in your last comment was just an attack on my character, not my ideas."
1. What I "know" is a judgement based on the drivel you have spewed on this site. And out of what was somewhat coherent, what I saw was vile, hateful, anger. The rest was meaningless drivel that could only have come from a drug-soaked 'mind'.
2. I have addressed your "ideas", and have roundly exposed them for the idiocy they are.
3. This is s'posed to be a place to discuss the editorial at the top - perhaps you have forgotten that - and have decided to use this space to vomit your idiotic, liberal "thoughts", such as they are.
You have yet to post anything coherent.
You have never disproven my thesis that liberals are indeed, the enemy within, as proven by their publics acts in Portland (and other places).
(email verified)
Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 03:19 PM
Seems that the new secular progressive movement has truely found out what company they are keeping in reality. So if your values are so deminished in the virtues of our countries Ideasls,values and principles which afford you the right to Peacefully express your Oppinions against our form of goverment based upon Christian Values and Virtues-----Openly emboldening the enemy of our country and the very existence of Christianity or any other religion for that fact.
Too You I say you are identified by the very company you keep and associate yourself with. I for one have seved this country for more than 20 years in the military service during peace time and War time. I firmly stand with the brave young men and Women who are serving in the current War which was created by radical elements which were part of your So Called Peaceful Demonstration. Freedom is a very Precious comodity which we as americans often take for granted. But I asure you that anyone who has had to endure the tyrany of a tryrant or religious radicial tryrant,will clearly select freedom over thier required submition.
Everyone knows thier rights -But what of your Responsibilities to Serve and Protect the Ideals and Principles of our Country's Constitution. You are either for or against Them---A matter of Choice . Just as it is a matter of choice to live here in this land of freedom and opportunity. We do not ask people to come to our country ,yet they eagerly seek to come here to enjoy our freedom and opportunities which so many natural born americans take for granted. That freedom is not nor has it ever been FREE ---It has been born out of the sacrifices of people willing to serve this country and many have sacrificed thier own lives ,health and wellbeing and personal wealth to assure you have your rights, So do not so caliously trivilize thier lives nor thier blood which has soaked the earth to maintain the very freedom you squander in your misguided reality by media sources of international statuter who aggressively seek to discredit our country at every possible opportunity.
Propoganda is also a Tool and your actions foster that tool. So if you truely believe in thier adgenda perhaps you should relocate to a country more of your personal ideals.
GOD BLESS AMERICA and OUR Troops, Sailors,Marines, Airmen and women for thier service and sacrifices.
To all you Misguided and Politicians - May God grant you some knowledge of Life besides Personal Profit and EGO before it becomes too late.
Sincerely
Joe S Anton HTCS(SW) US NAVY RETIRED /Permenant Disability Retired List---100% Service Connected
(email verified)
Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 04:32 PM
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
John Stuart Mill
(email verified)
Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 11:28 PM
True, you see nothing in the first amendment that allows people to disagree with you without issuing veiled threats of violence...again, this editorial and the responses to it are nothing but attempts to force dissent into some "proper format", which in the end, simply amounts to keeping your mouth shut as there will never be a right winger properly sanctioned way to protest. Just anoother trick in the right wing bag of tricks to shut down liberals.
(email verified)
Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 02:25 AM
Whether you like or hate Bush, this demonstration was terrible. If you condone it, then you definitely dont appreciate how good you have it in this country. Try doing that demonstration in another country and you will be in jail buddy. I dont care what political affiliation you are or what the first amendment says, the act in Portland was wrong.....I dont support Bush and his ways, but our troops are over there and you support them no matter what. They represent us and they do the best they can. People that do this kind of stuff should be shipped outta here......
(email verified)
Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 04:48 AM
The "leftists"? It's not the "leftists" that are destroying the rights guaranteed by the Constitution. It's not the "leftists" that LIED the USA into a war. It's not the "leftists" that are trying their damnest to turn the USA into a theocracy. It's NOT the "leftists" CRAMMING THEIR BRAND of FAUX religion down everyone else's throats.
"Money trumps peace sometimes."
Dubya Bush
(email verified)
Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 04:53 AM
SOldiers are scum! They are people who love to kill. period!!!! They are bread from high school sports. They are the same "jocks" who gave people wedgies in the locker room and shoved littler people in their lockers. I support the actions of those protesters and every other liberal standing up to these "bullies". DOWN WITH BUSH AND HIS CROWNIES!!!
(email verified)
Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 06:16 AM
Pat Logghe,
Seldom are the twisted motivations of the left illustrated quite so clearly.
Your 'feelings' apparently have no basis in reality or current events but instead are driven by your feelings of inadequacy held over since high school. While not being brave enough to confront one of these 'scum' soldiers directly, you will attack from your well-hidden spot infront of your computer. How very telling.
You will fit in very well with Portland's leftist community.
As is the case demonstrated by your post, most of them are illiterate and unhinged.
Please continue with your miserable existance.
(email verified)
Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 06:25 AM
J Dawg:
In response to 1) The reason why so many of my CLEARLY stated and perfectly coherent sentences seem INCOHERENT to YOU is because you lack the understanding to debate these concepts. As far as the accusation that what you failed to comprehend was due to my "drug-soaked 'mind'" spewing incoherence, you are consistently revealing the vast substance of your message to be pure ad hominem, as this sentence is, since it is an attack on my character, and since you do not know me personally, have no basis for your claim.
In response to 2), that you have "addressed" my "ideas and have roundly exposed them for the idoicy they are". Sorry, buddy, but YOU HAVE NOT. You have yet to engage me in any debate, conversation, discussion of theory, or offered me ANYTHING to refute the IDEAS, THEORY and INSTITUTIONAL ANALYSIS that I have offered to you, in the hopes that you might actually THINK about what I am saying and refute it with your own theory, if you can.
In response to 3) addressing the actions of these protesters and my opinion on what they did, I covered that in the first comment I posted, have continued to tackle the issue through my other postings and have attempted to shed some light on WHAT ANARCHISTS ACTUALLY BELIEVE, in the hopes it might BROADEN the debate. To the extent that it hasn't, it is because of your refusal to address the issues that have inspired this action, not because what I have to say is undebatable.
Those who try to force others to conform to their definitions and ideas of what things mean and what the real issues are by refusing to LISTEN to the VOICE of those that are DISCONTENT and engage them in MEANINGFUL dialogue, will only fuel their determination to be heard and REBEL in the attempts to live THEIR lives.
Those who consistently marginalise, disenfranchise and MISREPRESENT the views of anarchists only push them to more desperate acts in their attempts to be heard by this nation, forcing them to do sensational acts in the hopes to gain some attention by a mass media who seems to only be concerned with sensational news and creating viewers who only respond to sensational products and headlines, since REAL debate is to BORING for them.
Anarchism is consistently misrepresented in the mainstream media as CHAOS and Anarchists portrayed to be drug-crazy loons. You are just buying into the corporate propaganda of what they WANT you to believe anarchism is when you refuse to do research for yourself. As said before, read a book on anarchism. I recommend, "What Is Anarchism?" by Alexander Berkman for a start, although there has been much theory added to what anarchism means since then, since the book was written in the early 1900s and theory has to be consistently UPDATED to remain relevant to modern times.
If YOU have anything intelligent to add to the debate, please let ME know.
As for what was done by the protesters, this was addressed above.
Imperialist policies of priveleged, first world nations in their attempt to live on TOP of the world do nothing to prevent terrorism. They actually foster it. While I believe that a democracy is better than a theocracy anyday, and am fighting against both church & state tyranny, America's so-called democracies' growth has been stunted and outright hi-jacked by the corporate, imperialist policies of this corporate-run government and the majority of Americans know and feel it. They are just consistently distracted by a war that the government creates. The level of government complicity in the 9/11 tragedy is outrageous. As said before, check out "Loose Change" if you can still get a copy of it as I heard it was deemed illegal through the Patriot Act. If it's such garbage, why are they trying so hard to hide it?
(email verified)
Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 08:23 AM
To the people who more or less say soldiers are ignorant, i know MANY armed forces grads and people who served in the military and they are VERY well off with great jobs, great experinces and all........
Pat Logghe, im sure u got beat up alot, picked on, and was VERY unathletic in highschool, totally unpopular, or u woodnt be saying that stuff......u need to study the military before you go off of what John Kerry and Senator Kennedy say.....
Finally, all you liberals need to go back and hide under ur rocks......for some reason u all only come out in groups, not individually b/c u have no spine and cant do anything you say u will......u say we are over there killing innocent people.....these people are being used as human sheilds......there own people, not us, are causing suicide bombs killing innocent people.........sounds like something a liberal wood do, as stupid as some are, especially the ones in the portland area.........
And i apologize for bashing liberals, there are "great" liberals that wood think the act in portland is totally uncalled for.....but the ones that have made posts on this page so far are totally uninformed and ignorant....
(email verified)
Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 09:01 AM
I just learned about this event. It's obviously really publicized. I know I'm not overly involved in the news but...?? Anyway I have a couple comments. Someone here a couple days ago said that we need to support these people's free speech and insinuated that folks on here weren't doing that by expressing their rage over this disgusting event. Um... correct me if I'm wrong but don't the folks who disagree with the crass, disgusting, and despicable get to have free speech as well? Does free speech only go one way? What has happened to personal responsibility?? Last time I checked if I do something I get to experience the consequences for that act. The consequences to burning an effigy of a soldier, burning our Flag, and deficating on the Flag is the reaction you see on this web site and many other sites. If you can't handle this reaction then DON'T DO THE ACTION that provokes it!!! After all you support the free speech of ALL Americans right?? We have the right to be angry and say what we think about people who use THEIR free speech to spit on what we revere as the symbols of our freedom.
Whenever I don't like the way people react to something I do, I do a very novel thing.... I learn from the experience. I either don't do it again or I learn to live with the consequence. Just an oddity I picked up in my childhood.
As for bashing our troops.... I have no words to express my absolute disgust and horror, but I could refer folks to the blog for Dr. Laura Schlessinger. Ok, now I just branded myself. At any rate she has a very good statement about this event.
(email verified)
Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 10:26 AM
"correct me if I'm wrong but don't the folks who disagree with the crass, disgusting, and despicable get to have free speech as well? Does free speech only go one way? What has happened to personal responsibility??"
Jennie, in liberal-land, only liberals who hate America and GWB have the "right" to "free speech" - "speech" now defined as defecation on the flag and burning of soldiers in effigy. Personal responsibility also have no place in la-la-land.
sn, I didn't come here to "debate" you, rather, to express my disgust with the "protest" you and your buddies engaged in. I have no desire to engage you in debate, as it is a fruitless exercise - akin to throwing pearls before swine. In fact, I have lost several valuable minutes responding to you as is - time I will never get back.
Your position is clear; you hate America, you hate GWB, you hate our soldiers, but you'll engage in all the activity you want and call it freedom. Never mind the fact that it is the sacrifice of people like our soldiers that gave you that "right." I have no more to say to you.
(email verified)
Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 11:04 AM
"Here in the United States we have a thing called FREE SPEECH."
There is also a thing called decent behavior. Having freedom of speech doesn't mean you can say or do anything and everything you want to do. And to use freedom of speech as a carte blanche for despicable behavior, no matter the impact on others, is the height of ignorance.
Not only that, but as others have pointed out, there seems to be a lot of hypocrisy as to just what will be "tolerated" and what will not. Just try saying the "N-word" out in public (unless you happen to be African American, that is) or singing Christmas carols on the steps of a courthouse. These are definitely no-no's. However, you can s--- in public - never mind that it's on our flag - and not be held accountable for your actions. Pitiful.
As "Pat Logghe"'s comments about soldiers, I'm sure you were turned down when you tried to enlist. What a sniveling coward you are. I wonder if you would say that to a soldier's face? Probably not. It's excess baggage like you that bog down the public health departments and tax our Welfare system. I'll bet you don't turn down that check when it comes every month.
(email verified)
Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 11:57 AM
J Dawg:
Thanks for putting words in my mouth. The essence of misrepresentation. As said earlier, I was not one of the ones that participated in the event, I do not "hate America or hate our soldiers" and I do not appreciate you saying this to me when I have explained SEVERAL times my position.
I personally prefer more direct, literal political engagement in attempting to change the system. However, a protest is a protest and I have tried my best to explain what I believe the protesters were TRYING to say when they burned the puppet soldier and defecated on the flag. They were calling for an end to what they see as the senseless, violent killing of their fellow Americans by a corrupt Commander-in-Chief and of those in Iraq, also by calling violence what it is: violence. The symbol of a man in uniform has come to represent violence and oppression more than freedom and national security to them. They feel this way because they have made an attempt to study history beyond a high school level and understand how, overall, the system works as a tool for the rich to oppress the poor and working classes' right to self-determination. They see the shift of American politics returning to the years of McCarthyism. They see COINTELPRO policies being reinstated under the names of "Homeland Security", the "Patriot Act" and all the other unconstitutional practices which are a thin-veil for their true practice of eliminating dissent through direct state violence and the censorship practices of the corporate-owned mass media. They see their commrades in struggle "disappearing" or being framed-up for charges and imprisoned for crimes they never committed.
If you don't believe me, do your own research. It's all there. Check out akpress on the web, etc.
I have sacrificed much of my mortal time here on earth and the material comforts and benefits of earning a decent income and building up social security so I could investigate into the TRUTH of what is happening in our country and world, so that I can make a REAL contribution to my society, humanity and the larger world.
If the earth is to remain inhabitable for human life in the years to come, it will take a political and social ideology as profound and humane as anarchism to save it.
History has been an evolution towards that step and it is only the suppression of the government that has prevented the dream from becoming a reality.
To us, this government has been brutal and oppressive since its inception and has not only not lived up to its' own professed ideals, but has actively worked against them and the efforts of the people to create a truly humane society.
As long as the mainstream media keeps us silenced in our efforts to speak our minds, we will be reduced to displaying the symbols of America for the ugliness of what they are behind the lie they teach us they're suppossed to represent in school and on TV.
(email verified)
Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 12:46 PM
Obviously those persons knew they were doing something wrong, Or they would have the nerve to show their faces proudly, only scared, uneducated people hide.
That "soldier" that was burned in efigy, was my husband who is currently in Iraq.
Any person who can deface the American flag should be stripped of their citizenship, and deported. The American Flag is for "Americans" and only true Americans know how to treat it. If you are not a true American, don't touch it. Leave my flag alone.
If you can't stand behind our troops. Stand in front of them.
(email verified)
Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 01:57 PM
P.S. Were any charges filed? Isn't it a Class C misdemenor in Or. to deface the US Flag?
(email verified)
Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 02:01 PM
I see now that they re-introduced the statement they originally deleted/censored by Emma Goldman. I wonder why? To discredit me, perhaps?
Whatever.. anyone with any intelligence can see from the postings I have made (if they've taken the time to read them) that REAL Anarchists have the ability to think for themselves and debate in a REAL, logical way.
Anyone willing to put up with the absolute injustice that is perpetrated by the our so-called "American" government, just because they are scared that this country will be taken over by Islamo-fascists have obviously not been paying attention to the truth of who's to blame and watching to much gov't/corporate sponsored TV-propaganda. They will also be responsible for America's demise by staying plugged in and complacent.
If you are interested in the truth, it is out there.
This comment will probably be deleted, just as they deleted my one comment and then reintroduced it to discredit me.
Anyone who has been paying attention to what happened on this site I ask you please read the comment that they deleted by me and then reinserted above, it was written under the name of Emma Goldman, then to stand up and call out Portland Tribune for it's censorship practices, even if you disagree with me.
Our liberties are being taken away more and more everyday.
(email verified)
Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 02:12 PM
Editorial response:
"sn"
The comment in question was initially rejected by a staff member who felt that, on its face, it appeared to be a personal attack on both Ford and Bush. After further research, the assertions in the comment appear to be adequately supported by reliable documentation and we, therefore, restored the comment.
With regard to the assertion that we're practicing "censorship," if this were the only venue by which you could express your views that charge might be accurate but the current state of the web and the profusion of free blogs and web sites makes it possible for virtually anyone to make their views available to millions of people.
With regard to the assertion that we're "marginalizing ... unpopular opinion," the only boundaries we put on this comment forum are that comments be accurate, relevant and reasonably respectful.
If you stay within those boundaries, you shouldn't have anything to worry about.
James Marks
Webmaster
Pamplin Media Group
What flags represent to the truly attentive are the SUBSTANCE of the administration's policies. We are burning the representation of the lie.
(email verified)
Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 02:17 PM
"If you can't stand behind our troops. Stand in front of them."
And while you're at it, could you hold that target up over your face, please???
heh heh heh
Kristina, God bless you and yours for the sacrifice your husband is making on behalf of this country. I bet these lib anarchist traitors wouldn't have the guts to do what they did in Portland in front of a bunch of veterans.
sn, do you not understand plain english? You're a lost cause. Go play with your droppings in the street, since that's what you lib anarchist traitors like to do. Better yet, why don't you use the freeway for a toilet and see how far your "speech" gets ya. heh heh.
(email verified)
Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 03:43 PM
"We are burning the representation of the lie."
A rose by a different name. Why don't you just admit it. You hate America. Go ahead, you wouldn't have any problems saying it with your lib buddies, or over on dKos, or HuffPo.
We all know what you mean. You can't couch it with rhetoric.
(email verified)
Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 03:45 PM
"P.S. Were any charges filed? Isn't it a Class C misdemenor in Or. to deface the US Flag?"
Are you kidding, Kristina? In Portland????!!! They probably have a medal in that city for what those protestors did...
(email verified)
Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 03:46 PM
Americans: if you can't stand up for YOURSELF, please sit down. Read a book. Consume, conform, obey.
J Dawg you are a hateful, violent person who likes to hide behind the government and use them as your weapon. You are no better than the bigots who burned the so-called millions of witches during the Crusades. During that time it was called "christianizing" the population. During this time, it will be done in the name of "Americanizing them".
Loyal to my country? Always.
Loyal to my government? When it deserves it.
That is true patriotism, you fascist.
To Kristina: I have lost family in wars. I hope your husband makes it home safe. If not, keep in mind, it was the government that took him from you, not the people that are protesting in the name of trying to save his life. I'm sorry the message got so diluted and misunderstood. But we do not want to see people die, we want to see them stop killing.
(email verified)
Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 04:00 PM
Maybe we should just have a civil war to see which side is right. If this country continues to polarize this way that is where we are headed. All that it will take is a spark. When that happens there will be little doubt who will win.
I have been in Iraq for 3 years now and I know a little bit about this. When you have 2 or more groups more interested in their cause than their country anything becomes easily justifiable in their eyes. Whatever the opposition does is "evil" while whatever "we" do is "good." This kind of madness is not restricted to Islam, no it is a sign of the times.
There is no defense for the flag burner/defecator if you are an American, no matter what your agenda. None. The only people who can rationalize it fall within my above model of people who care more for their "cause" than their country. A few more stops down the line and you arrive at shooting sprees and bomb belts.
Here are some facts and feelings for both sides of the war argument.
Feeling: We should leave because the Iraqis want us to leave.
Fact: The Iraqi government want us to stay.
Fact: According to recent polls the Iraqi people want us to stay by a 60% majority which also say that things are better there now than under Saddam.
Feeling: We are increasing the tension between the Sunnis and Shites.
Fact: Sunni and Shite have hated each other for centuries, not only since we arrived.
Feeling: The muslim world hates us more for invading Iraq.
Fact: Muslims as a whole hate us no matter what we do.
Fact: The Muslim world hated us more for invading Afghanistan.
Feeling: We can turn Iraq into a free democratic society.
Fact: There is not one single true democracy in the Muslim world, they are all ruled by monarchy/despots or single party totalitarianist/theocratic governments.
Fact: There is no freedom of speech or religion in the Muslim world, period.
Feeling: If we leave Iraq we can safely hide in America.
Fact: Muslim extrmest groups have already declared war on America.
Fact: Muslim extremeism is not confined to any particluar country/region. They are present in just about every country in the world today.
Fact: Extremest leaders have called our country "paper tigers" and have said they we cannot defeat them. They have used previous defeats, aka Somalia and Vietnam, as rallying cries for recruitment. Our withdawl from Somalia directly resulted in 9/11.
(email verified)
Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 09:32 PM
"sn"
I dont really agree w much that you say (but i respect it), anyways, i too made 3 or 4 posts yesterday that were on this blog for about 30 minutes, then mysteriously vanished, and one came back briefly under the name "Greg".....kinda weird......
(email verified)
Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 11:12 PM
"We are burning the representation of the lie."
To you, unfortunately a lie. To many, it is a representation of freedom, hope, opportunity, and a welcoming home. The United States is not perfect. We can make changes to it without convincing each other and people abroad to hate it.
(email verified)
Thu, Mar 29, 2007 at 12:59 AM
"Our Troops are dying for freedom, yet you Nazi's on the right want to take them away". If my efforts, and those of all my friends I watched carried away in a bag were so that dirty liberals could crap on the flag that I wore on my sleeve, I have wasted a year of my life. But I know better. I know that the American people are free, and that most Americans are insightful enough to understand that they have freedoms that few others on this earth enjoy. I also know that the few who would defecate on the symbol of our country, our freedom and the men who have given their lives to win that freedom are a minority, as are those who would defend their freedom to do so. If you want to take a dump on something, take a dump in your wallet so the police can ID you when someone with more self control than myself gets ahold of you.
(email verified)
Thu, Mar 29, 2007 at 01:55 AM
This is a question to the liberals, and it's not meant to be mean or sarcastic; what would you do, if ever, our country was invaded by one of our enemies? Would you stand and fight along side our soldiers? What would your reaction be?
I feel the perception is, that liberals are weak and would never sacrifice themselves to defend the people of this country. Please tell me if and why this is wrong.
(email verified)
Thu, Mar 29, 2007 at 02:16 AM
So let me get this straight. If I don't condemn the pooper for pooping, I'm anti-American... just as if I don't cry outrage at flag burners, and yet, the freedoms that everyone is claiming we are fighting the war for, covers freedom of speech as well. But to practice these freedoms one is Anti-American. Interesting. I agree with one comment, having the right to do something doesn’t make what you’re doing the right thing to do.
I think that the few in the crowd that were being asses, are in fact, asses. You see them with any large gathering. ANY. I'm against opportunistic violence, and this is what we had. It wasn't a systemic problem of the left or right, but just a systemic problem when you get large groups of people in that venue. Politics aside, this is just how it is.
Don’t believe me?
Are we then to say that the riots after basketball games, world football (soccer), and other sports events are done by "lefties"... that abortion clinic vigils that turn ugly are lefties? (ie bombs, shootings, calling women whores, splashing them with blood, harassing etc). What about when "left" and "right" demonstrations collide, is it always the left's fault? Watts riots? Kent State? April 22 1992 LA riots… left again? Or were then the escalation events, where opportunistic people became violent? But not just violent. What about the abuse of the voting system, blocking voters from the polls? Is this also a leftist thing? People are people and some have different ways of showing their agendas. Parties aside, it’s a person’s actions that should be judged.
And to the guy that claims ALL WORLD violence is done by left, please grow up and take a world history class or four. A fundamental Islamic is in point of fact a far right leaning person, just as any fire and brimstone bible thumper from the 1700’s America was a far right leaning person.
I would say that this act was done, not by a protester demanding peace, but by someone that just wanted to vent anger and frustration... these were called Anarchists back in the 80's and 90's. No it wasn't a conspiracy by the socialists, or communists (do they even exist anymore?), and there are no meetings between democrats and islamo-facists, Portland isn’t being subverted by North Vietnam and dictators... to think otherwise is akin to seeing aliens in the white house. You’re no better then the 911 conspiracy freaks.
If people actually thought about it, you'd see that a far right wing group of Muslims would want even less to do with a left leaning group, then the republicans.
That said; I am amazed at the paranoia, finger pointing, and hate that I've read on this page, relating to this post. I suggest that those of you who claimed you'd have done violence had you seen what transpired at the protest are no better then those who became violent themselves.
But isn't that the way of Patriotic Americans? I’m right, you’re wrong, now shut up before I hit you.
Oh and by the way, I’m an independent. I voted for Bush in the first election but not the second and think he’s doing a crappy job. I liked Bill Clinton, and think he did a good thing for the US economy while in office, but embarrassed himself with Ms Lweinsky. I am against the war in Iraq, but for it in Afghanistan… because I’m all for getting those responsible for the 911 attacks, but know enough about the world to realize that not all “middle eastern people” are the same, and not all are terrorists… I don’t generalize an entire group by the actions of one or few.
(email verified)
Thu, Mar 29, 2007 at 03:13 AM
"We are burning the representation of the lie."
So I'm just wondering when there was a big deal about someone messing with the Koran.... wasn't that just dishonoring the representation of the lie of extremist Islam?
If you're going to say the Koran is a Holy Book for many who aren't violent then I would reply with the Flag is a Sacred Symbol for many who aren't government officials who you happen to disagree with!
The Flag is NOT a symbol of our government. It is a symbol of our COUNTRY. The Flag remains the same no matter who wins into office. However corrupt our government is (what government ISN'T at some level) we are a FREE people thanks to the blood of our soldiers. How can anyone desecrate the symbol of the very men and women who bought the freedom to protest?? Those of you acting like this are like spoiled kids who've been given too much without having to work for it. Read some books by people who have come here from other countries! Hansi comes to mind. An girl taken from her home and raised as a Hitler Youth, eventually makes her way to America. She is shocked when she learns that here in America she doesn't have to ASK any government official if she can move. Go online and talk to some people from other countries. You will begin to see that options that we take for granted simply aren't available. I have a friend from a socialist based country. Her father happened to be in the same business as my husband. The difference? The government decides what jobs he will be doing. There's no such thing as running an ad and getting more work.
Americans should be GRATEFUL they were blessed enough to be born in America.
(email verified)
Thu, Mar 29, 2007 at 03:21 AM
What's this about the 'poor' verus the 'rich'? I have been literally below poverty most of my life. I had 5 siblings and my dad had a $5 an hour job for years. He was unemployed often. Not once did my parents collect welfare! They continued to work hard and taught their kids to work hard. Every one of my siblings are successful middle class (some I suspect are higher than middle class). When I was single living on my own I went without meals nearly every day. I could barely survive. I am now what I would term reasonably well off. No one stopped me from leaving poverty. No one tried to make me stay poor. No one kept me from working hard and taking risks to earn more money. No one kept me from driving a twice totaled car that was paid for, no one kept us from not spending money on anything so that we could afford to buy a house beyond our means which then made us a fair amount of equity. No one tied my husband up and told him he wasn't allowed to work hard all his life so as to not allow him to make money. Come on folks!! This is America. If you don't have a 'niche' MAKE one.
(email verified)
Thu, Mar 29, 2007 at 04:06 AM
Dear "Patriot":
According to your first comment, "Maybe we should just have a civil war to see which side is right?" Yeah, typical might makes right mentality: brutality. It also assumes that the majority is always correct.
In a society where people depend on a handful (I think it's only 5 now) of multi-national corporations for the shaping of their opinion and what they accept as "fact", what you get is MASS-PRODUCED OPINION shaped by the interests of what a few, rich elites deem news-worthy and in THEIR best interest. Check out "Manufacturing Consent" by Noam Chomsky to understand more about how this process works. He is an academic and teacher at M.I.T., and has written over 70 books on everything from media to language to economics to U.S. foreign policy, the last one mentioned which he studies like a true-patriot watch dog.
In reference to your statement, "When you have 2 or more groups that are interested in their cause than in their country". This depends on what their "cause" is and it also depends on what you define as "country". If you define country as the government, then your position is clear. However, to those that have had the opportunity to make a more investigative analysis into the way in which institutions operate, we understand, as Mark Twain did, that there is a fundamental distinction between a government and a country.
That is why he said, "Loyalty to my country? Always. Loyalty to my government? When it deserves it."
How much can you trust for your information a handful of corporations when it is the same corporations who both own our media and occupy the governmental positions? Follow the money trails and they will all point in the same, general direction. The interests of the rich prevail over the interests of the working class. Same thing since the dawn of concentrated wealth.
Keep in mind these are the same corporations holding governmental positions that fund what is deemed "public education" for our children, where the indoctrination begins.
For Anarchists, our country is not defined by the borders of nation-states, which are artificially created lines created by governments interested in maintaining their power and keeping us divided. The world is our country, and we care just as much for human life in Iraq as we do for human life at home.
If you feel that you are truly engaging in doing something good for the Iraqi people and for the American people, then you will be answerable to your own conscience when all is said and done. In order to remain accountable and responsible for your conscience, however, you need to be in control, at all times, over your actions - so when you squeeze the trigger, make sure you are doing it for what you believe in, not just because you are following orders. After becoming aware of the indoctrination process, lack of information and lies presented to us in school and through the mass media, if you never question your beliefs, then you ARE just basically following orders.
Make sure if you do not agree with a particular action, that you will not pull the trigger/engage in it - as then you will be a traitor to your country and your conscience. True patriots question their government.
Obviously, YOU as an individual, have joined the military because you want to fight for a noble "cause". Use all your senses, to make sure that cause IS and STAYS noble. Don't just TRUST blindly. Do your own research.
May you find the truth and make it home safe.
Please check out "Loose Change" for some interesting info. on who's responsible for 9/11 and may your spirit to fight for what's right continue on across ALL borders, even within the borders of your own country.
(email verified)
Thu, Mar 29, 2007 at 07:07 AM
To ViperQRF:
Self-control is where freedom begins. If you do not have self-control, then you become more vulnerable to reacting out of your emotions and become more easily manipulated for programming. Those that appeal to your emotions on what you were taught was "right" have only to appeal to your emotions in order to get you to do what they want, even kill.
Perhaps you should broaden your available tactics of response to people who do things that offend your sensibilities. Like for instance, go up to them and talk to them about why they feel the way they do. If you still disagree with them after engaging in dialogue, then you should vocalize your protest, your disagreement to them with what they are doing. You have every INALIENABLE right to do so. However, I'm sure most people, Americans and all, would agree that if you KILL someone for expressing their opinion, no matter how volatile it may seem, then that make you the less HUMANE of the two. Especially if you make no attempt at trying to understand why they are doing what they do.
I do not agree that they chose the best symbolism to express their discontent with U.S. Foreign Policy. That, however, is because of the inherent limitations of any relying on any symbolism to express a large body of ideas. Dialogue and understanding is what we need if we are truly interested in our fellow human beings.
If you are interested in some alternative perspectives on what this action meant, please see comments above.
However, I do take death threats seriously and will be prepared for anyone attempting to take my life.
(email verified)
Thu, Mar 29, 2007 at 07:28 AM
To Spartan:
I would stand along and fight with my fellow soldiers if our country was ever being invaded by any enemy foreign OR domestic. However, I do not limit my tactics to pure violence or allow others to decide for me who the enemy is. The invading enemy of this and every other country is the government. I will always retain my INALIENABLE right to decide when and IF to pull the trigger. I am trying my best, as a duty to my fellow man, not to have to rely on violence to resolve conflict.
(email verified)
Thu, Mar 29, 2007 at 07:38 AM
Money, money, money, blah, blah, blah.. Money makes right? Money makes good? Yes, please give me more, mama, I LIKE money!
What, momma? Money rules everything? You mean human beings don't cooperate outside of having to pay money for everything? Why, momma? Because I said so, honey, that's JUST THE WAY IT IS. But YOU give ME things, Mommy and you don't charge ME! WHY? Because I love you, honey, that's different. Well shouldn't we all just love each other mommy and provide for each other? Why do we have to charge each other? Shut up, stop asking so many questions, I'm not an economist, besides , I HAVE TO go back to work, now.. goodbye..
But, but.. (door slams).
Is this REALLY the best we can do and muster for our fellow man? REALLY? NO OTHER CHOICE? Sounds like slavery to me!!
(email verified)
Thu, Mar 29, 2007 at 07:59 AM
The truth will allude those resigned to living a life of slavery.
Slavery has become the easy way out, just do what you are told.
Those that produce the NECESSITIES of life will continue to have to work harder to produce them for those not willing to produce them for themselves.
What is HONEST work? Whatever makes money? In America, I guess so.
(email verified)
Thu, Mar 29, 2007 at 08:09 AM
Is this REALLY the best we can do and muster for our fellow man? REALLY? NO OTHER CHOICE? Sounds like slavery to me!!
Well actually slavery is when someone else owns you as if you are a piece of property and you have no ability to make choices of your own to change your situation in life. It doesn't matter if we agree with the 'rules of money' the point IS the world has run off this type of principal (the principal of owning things and some having more than others) as far back as we have history. The fact is this is REALITY. The way I see it is I can either gripe about it or I can just do the best I can with what I have. And really.... I don't feel like I'm a slave to anyone, government or otherwise. I choose my lifestyle, I chose where I live, I chose my spouse, I chose to have children, I choose when to go to town, I choose what to buy and what not to buy, I CHOOSE. Are there government infrigements on our 'perfect' liberty. Of course, otherwise there would be NO goverment and without a government there would be no unity and without that we would have total anarchy and the result of that would be events like the one in Portland times a million. Life would become survival of the fittest. Then those with the most money and/or power really WOULD rule. Not to mention without a unifying force of some kind we would be open to becoming involuntarily unified under some hostile country's occupying force. No thanks. I am happy to be responsible and forgo some of my liberties so as to preserve the more important ones.
(email verified)
Thu, Mar 29, 2007 at 08:19 AM
- ‘Please check out "Loose Change" for some interesting info. on who's responsible for 9/11’
Basic plot of “Loose Change”: Little green men from Mars swoop down in their space saucers and abduct all the airline passengers, morph their voices, fake the phone calls, and use their laser-beams to melt the steel buildings!
THE END.
(email verified)
Thu, Mar 29, 2007 at 09:21 AM
To KafirKelbeh:
maybe you need to add an extra K to your name, as the way you have misrepresented the documentary "Loose Change" is about as far away from the truth of what the documentary actually says as is the contrast between the nature of how africans TRULY are (normal human beings) and how the KKK displays THEM.
You discredited yourself. As always, anyone interested in the TRUTH should investigate for THEMSELVES.
(email verified)
Thu, Mar 29, 2007 at 11:00 AM
To Jennie:
If this fact is REALITY, does that mean it has to remain so, even if you have the desire to change it?
And if it DOES have to remain so, even though people have the desire and ability to CHANGE IT, then it is force-fed reality: slavery. No choice offered.
People's desire and actions to alter reality is a natural part of human evolution as well. This is what is constantly being repressed by governments in their desire to maintain the status quo. It is only when people stand up to express and work for the type of world we want to live in that we end up with a government OF the people, by the people, for the people. This is the difference between cooperation and coercion. The ability to choose how much you participate in the DOMINANT economy and how much you choose not to. To the extent that we feel as if we have "no choice" and we must participate in the DOMINANT economy only represents the irresponsibility of people to cooperate and produce basic human necessities for all such as LAND, HOUSING, FOOD, CLOTHING and guarantee these to SHARE without being forced to have to pay money for them.
There is also one other contributing factor as to why we have not been able to reach this point in society: official repression. Take a look at history and you will see the State has been the enemy of people trying to create a just, sane world. Look at COINTELPRO in the sixties in their supression of the Black Panthers and the American Indian Movement. Do you know, according to official FBI documents, WHY the Black Panthers were deemed the #1 public enemy of America? Was it because they were black and had guns to protect themselves from the police and white racists? NO. According to the FBI, the #1 reason the Black Panthers were considered to be the #1 threat to America is because of the FREE FOOD Program. At the height of their organization, they were feeding more people than the welfare program was in certain parts of the country. I guess if you start to do a better job than the government at governing, then you become a threat to THEIR security, which is why they were assassinated, framed, put in jail and in the words of the COINTELPRO program: NEUTRALIZED.
When people stand up and start to take the responsibility for governing themselves and producing their own needs, this is when the true face of government is revealed: to RULE. To have authority over you, to control you: violence.
Well, sorry, but to some, the present state of conditions is too intolerable and the voice of their conscience too strong to sit back and not attempt to live true, free lives just because the government might kill you. THEY are the TERRORISTS and they keep trying to terrorize us into obedient submission. But the more of us stand up, the better chance we have of winning social progress. I don't care how many people have the courage to stand up. I refuse to cooperate with injustice and I find the people like me who are willing to do something about it. And there are many.
(email verified)
Thu, Mar 29, 2007 at 11:24 AM
More "thought" from "sn"
The gov't is evil, America is bad, defecating on flag good, anarchy (do what you want, when you want, where you want, and to **** with any consequences) good, blah, blah, blah.
Looks like you've been brainwashed well.
Just how many Che t-shirts _do_ you have, sn?
(email verified)
Thu, Mar 29, 2007 at 02:07 PM
You know, until now I really had no idea how much protesting contributed to our lives, how their views are revered all over the world, and that their opinions are the only ones that matter. I had no idea that their actions were letting the world know how we all felt about the USA, and how important their message was. I have learned to appreciate these protester and the inconvienience caused to my day, because they make these sacrafices for us. Thank you, so much, for setting me streight.
(email verified)
Thu, Mar 29, 2007 at 03:27 PM
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Re: Rudeness mars peace message
It is pretty obvious that a very organized small group was intent on disrupting Sunday’s anti-war march with behavior that was meant to be disgusting as possible. There only aim was to “destroy the message of peace” that thousands of other marchers brought with them to downtown Portland.
It makes you wonder who paid them to do this.
"Marilyn"
(email verified)
Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 06:45 AM